UKIP poster boy is a racist immigrant, film at 11

[Zanza]

Yes, but not as chronic (with a comparable economy).

Germany had chronic high unemployment in the late 90s and early 2000s. And it solved it mainly by expanding the low wage, low benefits, low security sector of the economy.

[Sheilbh]

Some of the stories I have heard from Britons, or read here (in regards to council housing for example) seems to show that a lot of the welfare system here can be used/abused to make life easier for people who could make it on their own (even if in a very modest way). That should never be the case, because it is highly unfair to:
-those who actually finance those benefits. They lose it in tax to be payed, instead of being able to spend/invest on their own
-those who actually need welfare, because there are less resources available to help them

The source of those stories is the exact same right-wing populist press (see the News of the World's 'sponger-watch' articles) as the anti-immigration stuff. You see the latter's bullshit because it touches on you, but when it comes to shaming the scroungers and the spongers you lap it up.

In this thread you've said that the UK has a welfare system where a lot can be abused and pointed out, correctly, that Europeans abuse it very little. Given that we've a huge range of in-work benefits and a generally universal welfare system rather than a predominately contributory one then the only way I can make sense of those two things is that either Europeans are stupider or more virtuous than the natives.

Alternately maybe welfare actually isn't that easily abused by anyone. Which would certainly explain the annual figures of less than 1% of the welfare budget being lost in fraud (less than by mistake).

This is partly what I mean about you being a natural UKIP voter. As well as your Carswellian libertarianism, when you talk about the economy and welfare you're a pair of union jack braces and a pint of bitter away from full Farage

It was overdramatic, maybe, but not incorrect. The very concept of welfare/redistribution is that you take money by force from people who have earned it, and give it to people who didn't.

If you want to you can say that about all of government. We're a Monarchy. The very concept of our system is that it's all more or less ultimately owned by the ancestor of a man who literally took it by force and who now lives on an income of millions a year.

But I was not talking about unemployment (in my original post), Yi did. I was talking about the fact that Germany does not seem to have such tensions surrounding welfare and immigration as the UK does now.

The UK's hardly unique:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/05/14/in-europe-sentiment-against-immigrants-minorities-runs-high/
As I say and the Economist have said many times arguably UKIP's a sign that we're becoming more European. The collapse of the big two party system that's always dominated Westminster and the rise of a European style right wing populist party.

Yes, but not as chronic (with a comparable economy). Comparing the UK economy to something like Venezuela does not work - Germany is the only competitor of equal footing that chose a different model.

France is our natural competitor. That's the country I'd say we tend to measure ourselves against. Similar size population, similar size economy. Germany are bigger and richer and have been since the sixties (I'd guess).

[Admiral Yi]

Alternately maybe welfare actually isn't that easily abused by anyone. Which would certainly explain the annual figures of less than 1% of the welfare budget being lost in fraud (less than by mistake).

Your welfare system may be eminently fair and just, but a fraud % doesn't help you know that.  That just tells you that people are following the rules as they're written.

For my part, my understanding of British welfare is informed entirely by Trainspotting.

[Sheilbh]

Yes, but not as chronic (with a comparable economy).

Germany had chronic high unemployment in the late 90s and early 2000s. And it solved it mainly by expanding the low wage, low benefits, low security sector of the economy.

I think Germany's possibly storing up a few problems for the next recession, one is what you've mentioned. I'm not sure how long you can improve the economy by keeping labour costs down rather than improving productivity (which is still higher than the UK because that's our permanent curse). But I've also read that infrastructure investment's at quite historically low levels and, though I could be wrong, I can't think of a single structural reform that Merkel's passed in her time in office - though I understand the latest coalition does plan to lower the retirement age

I feel like Germany's going through something a bit like our 97-2007 which'll be looked back on as a missed opportunity.

[The Brain]

Germany is whack.

[Sheilbh]

Your welfare system may be eminently fair and just, but a fraud % doesn't help you know that.  That just tells you that people are following the rules as they're written.

Fair and just are to be decided by voters - including ones who tend to dislike immigrants but entirely share Tamas' view of 'dolescum'. But he mentioned 'use/abuse'. A fraud % gives an idea of the latter.

For my part, my understanding of British welfare is informed entirely by Trainspotting.

My understanding of American race politics is solely informed by Do the Right Thing.

[The Brain]

Abuse isn't the problem, at least in Sweden. The problem is use.

[Eddie Teach]

My understanding of American race politics is solely informed by Do the Right Thing.

Don't catch much Oscar bait, eh?

[Sheilbh]

My understanding of American race politics is solely informed by Do the Right Thing.

Don't catch much Oscar bait, eh?

I avoid any film that looks worthy

[Agelastus]

I'm also not sure about the tensions. They are there in the media but not apparent in my day-to-day life, conversations with friends and family does not reveal any great angst either; but then I don't know any unemployed people in, say, Clacton 

I've heard more complaints about immigrants from Eastern Europe (mainly in my area Poles) while in work than while out of work. Particularly when I was in the office of a small scale manufacturer.

Fear of Pakistanis etc. in the past seems to have been a racial issue; fear of Eastern Europeans would seem to be an economic issue given where the concern lies, anecdotally anyway.

[Zanza]

I think Germany's possibly storing up a few problems for the next recession, one is what you've mentioned. I'm not sure how long you can improve the economy by keeping labour costs down rather than improving productivity (which is still higher than the UK because that's our permanent curse). But I've also read that infrastructure investment's at quite historically low levels and, though I could be wrong, I can't think of a single structural reform that Merkel's passed in her time in office - though I understand the latest coalition does plan to lower the retirement age

I feel like Germany's going through something a bit like our 97-2007 which'll be looked back on as a missed opportunity.

That seems a fair assessment. There has been very little with regards to taxation, economic policy or investment during Merkel's various government. As you noticed, some of it is even about abolishing some of the reforms made by Schröder.
Not sure about productivity, I think that's slowly rising, but not by much.

[Razgovory]

Spend some years working in the private sector, then come back and let me know what you think.

Raz is right. What you're saying is not true.

It was overdramatic, maybe, but not incorrect. The very concept of welfare/redistribution is that you take money by force from people who have earned it, and give it to people who didn't.

I was thinking more about the first part.  That it hurts recipients.  If that was true and people really believed it then the UKIP would not be against immigrants getting welfare.

[Tamas]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497

New EU migrants add £5bn to UK, report says

[Jacob]

The source of those stories is the exact same right-wing populist press (see the News of the World's 'sponger-watch' articles) as the anti-immigration stuff. You see the latter's bullshit because it touches on you, but when it comes to shaming the scroungers and the spongers you lap it up.

In this thread you've said that the UK has a welfare system where a lot can be abused and pointed out, correctly, that Europeans abuse it very little. Given that we've a huge range of in-work benefits and a generally universal welfare system rather than a predominately contributory one then the only way I can make sense of those two things is that either Europeans are stupider or more virtuous than the natives.

Alternately maybe welfare actually isn't that easily abused by anyone. Which would certainly explain the annual figures of less than 1% of the welfare budget being lost in fraud (less than by mistake).

This is partly what I mean about you being a natural UKIP voter. As well as your Carswellian libertarianism, when you talk about the economy and welfare you're a pair of union jack braces and a pint of bitter away from full Farage

Well put.

[Tamas]

The source of those stories is the exact same right-wing populist press (see the News of the World's 'sponger-watch' articles) as the anti-immigration stuff. You see the latter's bullshit because it touches on you, but when it comes to shaming the scroungers and the spongers you lap it up.

In this thread you've said that the UK has a welfare system where a lot can be abused and pointed out, correctly, that Europeans abuse it very little. Given that we've a huge range of in-work benefits and a generally universal welfare system rather than a predominately contributory one then the only way I can make sense of those two things is that either Europeans are stupider or more virtuous than the natives.

Alternately maybe welfare actually isn't that easily abused by anyone. Which would certainly explain the annual figures of less than 1% of the welfare budget being lost in fraud (less than by mistake).

This is partly what I mean about you being a natural UKIP voter. As well as your Carswellian libertarianism, when you talk about the economy and welfare you're a pair of union jack braces and a pint of bitter away from full Farage

Well put.

Yeah except what Yi mentioned: by welfare abuse I don't mean people who misrepresent themselves to get welfare. I mean people who know how to navigate and milk the system in legal ways, while not actually being dependant on it for survival.