UKIP poster boy is a racist immigrant, film at 11

[Admiral Yi]

I am the first to say that Germany shouldn't cozy up so much to Orban, but I don't really see how the foreign policy towards Hungary is relevant when discussing the foreign policy towards Britain.

Because you claim it's a matter of irreducible principle.  Surely a functioning democracy should be one of the core principles of the EU as well.

[Tamas]

I am the first to say that Germany shouldn't cozy up so much to Orban, but I don't really see how the foreign policy towards Hungary is relevant when discussing the foreign policy towards Britain.

Because you claim it's a matter of irreducible principle.  Surely a functioning democracy should be one of the core principles of the EU as well.

Almost all of Hungary's export is toward Germany. We (well, they) are the assembly line for German companies. Orban will be able to get away with a lot of shit.

But I guess the UK is more like a rival, so if they will be ready to kick themselves in the nuts, Merkel will surely not stop them.

[Zanza]

Because you claim it's a matter of irreducible principle.  Surely a functioning democracy should be one of the core principles of the EU as well.

Yes and as I said I think Germany should do more about Hungary's failed democracy.
I still don't see how that has relevance to the question of whether we should tolerate Britain's well-working democracy abolishing one of the core principles of the EU.
Lamenting the inconsistency of German foreign policy doesn't mean we should apply our failure to act on Hungarian developments to Britain as well.

[Admiral Yi]

Yes and as I said I think Germany should do more about Hungary's failed democracy.
I still don't see how that has relevance to the question of whether we should tolerate Britain's well-working democracy abolishing one of the core principles of the EU.
Lamenting the inconsistency of German foreign policy doesn't mean we should apply our failure to act on Hungarian developments to Britain as well.

Because a supposed core principle that is applied situationally is not a core principle.

[derspiess]

What if it's a core principle to be situational?

[Zanza]

Yes and as I said I think Germany should do more about Hungary's failed democracy.
I still don't see how that has relevance to the question of whether we should tolerate Britain's well-working democracy abolishing one of the core principles of the EU.
Lamenting the inconsistency of German foreign policy doesn't mean we should apply our failure to act on Hungarian developments to Britain as well.

Because a supposed core principle that is applied situationally is not a core principle.

Which part of "should do more" don't you understand then? Or is your ability to understand written English also situational?

What you seem to be advocating here is that because German/EU policy fails on Hungary, we should let it fail on Britain too.

[Admiral Yi]

Ooh, feisty.

I do see a difference between should do more and UK must go.

[Zanza]

I guess the difference is that Hungarians are somehow seen as victims of Orban's antics due to the failed democracy in Hungary whereas Brits are deliberately using their well-working democracy to pick a course that leads to their EU exit. But I would support it if the EU would enact sanctions against Hungary as long as they continue to dismantle their democracy.

By the way, one important thing to notice here is who is actor and who only reacts. Britain wants to change the status quo, Germany and the rest of the EU don't. The UK doesn't have to go, they are very welcome to stay part of the EU. But only when they are willing to accept the core principles of the treaties they signed in 1973.

[Martinus]

Yes and as I said I think Germany should do more about Hungary's failed democracy.
I still don't see how that has relevance to the question of whether we should tolerate Britain's well-working democracy abolishing one of the core principles of the EU.
Lamenting the inconsistency of German foreign policy doesn't mean we should apply our failure to act on Hungarian developments to Britain as well.

Because a supposed core principle that is applied situationally is not a core principle.

only because you think something should be an EU core principle does not make it one.

Democracy is not one of the core principles of the ToFEU. Four freedoms are.

[Admiral Yi]

only because you think something should be an EU core principle does not make it one.

This is correct.

[Valmy]

So long as the EU principal is not 'lets boot out the pro-Atlanticist nations and embrace the pro-Russian ones' I can go with it.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I agree with Germany on this. The worthwhile bits of the EU are the free movement of EU citizens and goods and services. One can forgive all sorts of of bureaucratic nonsense in exchange for these great benefits.

So I have no idea what Cameron thinks he is playing at 

Luckily we don't have to vote the tories in at the next General Election, instead, waiting in the wings, we have the titanic figure of Ed Miliband and the A-team of Balls and Harman............ .........oh well.............guess we are fucked.

[The Brain]

Most Romanians are in Sweden anyway.

[Sheilbh]

Luckily we don't have to vote the tories in at the next General Election, instead, waiting in the wings, we have the titanic figure of Ed Miliband and the A-team of Balls and Harman............ .........oh well.............guess we are fucked.

I have no idea what'll happen next election. I think it's more than possible we could end up with another hung Parliament but also no clear, coherent coalitions available...

I don't know what'd happen. I can't ever imagine a grand coalition in the UK and it would just drive more people to the fringe.

Democracy is not one of the core principles of the ToFEU. Four freedoms are.

Sure. But that's a historical analysis and needs to be understood in the context of that time's desire to create a purely economic treaty. The EU does now have the Charter of Fundamental Rights and human rights, rule of law and democracy are part of the acquis.

By the way, one important thing to notice here is who is actor and who only reacts. Britain wants to change the status quo, Germany and the rest of the EU don't. The UK doesn't have to go, they are very welcome to stay part of the EU. But only when they are willing to accept the core principles of the treaties they signed in 1973.

I agree. But the understanding of 'free movement of workers' has rather changed since 1973. I think there'll be changes on the rules to benefits especially in-work ones because there's support for that elsewhere and the UK has a universal welfare state so it's particularly sensitive.

My understanding, for what it's worth, is that Cameron's proposals domestically might be modelled on Croatia which the Commission's very recently okayed. I don't know what that is though. Also the tool which I believe other member states use of expelling people unable to support themselves after three months isn't really plausible for us because we don't have any legal registration requirements or ID cards.

[Josquius]

The limiting national insurance numbers is an interesting one.
If we devolve that then Scotland can get its wish of more immigrants without them all heading to London.

Its not a hot topic in the uk. Only around 10% of the population rates the eu as an important issue either way. No matter how important the media says it is

Nonsense. It's a massively important topic for a huge number of people in this country. In the last "issues" poll for Yougov more people picked immigration as one of the three most important issues facing the country than any other topic including the economy and health.

Europe polled 4th, ahead of education, crime, tax, welfare and housing.

http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/jxo2nz2p9p/YG-Archives-Pol-Trackers-Issues(2)-Most-important-issues-281014.pdf

Thats unusual. I was actually referring to yougov polls, if you look back it was quite consistently around 10%. Europe seems to have really blown up in recent months.