Mirror uses stock image of American child for front page UK foodbanks story

[Sheilbh]

I don't follow.

[Jacob]

Is there a moral element in taking advantage of tax breaks and rebates? Is there a moral element I taking advantage of government programs like healthcare (where available)? Or is the moral element present only if tax money is funnelled to you in specific ways?

[grumbler]

Is there a moral element in taking advantage of tax breaks and rebates? Is there a moral element I taking advantage of government programs like healthcare (where available)? Or is the moral element present only if tax money is funnelled to you in specific ways?

Arguably, yes to all of the above.  All are provided as part of a social contract that says that a person contributes according to ability and receives according to need.  If a person is simply accepting without attempting to contribute, then there is a moral element to that acceptance.

I am not sure why this would even be controversial.

[LaCroix]

there are situations where an individual may technically qualify for a welfare program but not qualify for the purpose of that program. i think there's definitely a moral component in accepting welfare then

[Jacob]

Is there a moral element in taking advantage of tax breaks and rebates? Is there a moral element I taking advantage of government programs like healthcare (where available)? Or is the moral element present only if tax money is funnelled to you in specific ways?

Arguably, yes to all of the above.  All are provided as part of a social contract that says that a person contributes according to ability and receives according to need.  If a person is simply accepting without attempting to contribute, then there is a moral element to that acceptance.

I am not sure why this would even be controversial.

If I'm understanding you correctly, when you say that there's a moral element to these actions you mean that it's evidence of a moral failure of sorts? If you receive without attempting to contribute, that is evidence of a moral shortcoming. Am I understanding your usage correctly?

[grumbler]

Arguably, yes to all of the above.  All are provided as part of a social contract that says that a person contributes according to ability and receives according to need.  If a person is simply accepting without attempting to contribute, then there is a moral element to that acceptance.

I am not sure why this would even be controversial.

If I'm understanding you correctly, when you say that there's a moral element to these actions you mean that it's evidence of a moral failure of sorts? If you receive without attempting to contribute, that is evidence of a moral shortcoming. Am I understanding your usage correctly?

I am saying that it could be.  The issue isn't "is receiving welfare immoral?" it is "is there possibly a moral dimension to accepting welfare?"  In other words, "is it possible to immorally accept welfare?"  I say that it is.  Free-riding is not moral.

[MadImmortalMan]

No. Paying taxes is a requirement, so merely complying with the law in paying them or taking tax breaks has no moral content. The choice has been made for you. Morality requires a choice on the part of the individual. Deliberately breaking the law might have, however.

[Sheilbh]

Is there a moral element in taking advantage of tax breaks and rebates? Is there a moral element I taking advantage of government programs like healthcare (where available)? Or is the moral element present only if tax money is funnelled to you in specific ways?

I don't think there's a moral element to any of it.

I don't think there's a moral element to taking welfare to which you are legally entitled.

[Razgovory]

No. Paying taxes is a requirement, so merely complying with the law in paying them or taking tax breaks has no moral content. The choice has been made for you. Morality requires a choice on the part of the individual. Deliberately breaking the law might have, however.

Nonsense.  Taking a tax break is not a requirement, and second many things that are required by law are a moral choice.  Abiding by or breaking the law can be a moral choice.

[grumbler]

Is there a moral element in taking advantage of tax breaks and rebates? Is there a moral element I taking advantage of government programs like healthcare (where available)? Or is the moral element present only if tax money is funnelled to you in specific ways?

I don't think there's a moral element to any of it.

I don't think there's a moral element to taking welfare to which you are legally entitled.

I don't think argument by assertion adds anything to a debate.

[Sheilbh]

I don't think argument by assertion adds anything to a debate.

I just answered Jake's questions and wanted to clarify that by 'entitled' I don't mean that someone's contributed but that they're 'legally entitled'. I think it's exactly comparable with taking tax credits, using state school systems or healthcare provision.

[grumbler]

I don't think argument by assertion adds anything to a debate.

I just answered Jake's questions and wanted to clarify that by 'entitled' I don't mean that someone's contributed but that they're 'legally entitled'. I think it's exactly comparable with taking tax credits, using state school systems or healthcare provision.

More argument by assertion.  You are simply saying, again, that you don't think that there are moral dimensions because you don't think that there are moral dimensions.

[MadImmortalMan]

Is there a moral element in taking advantage of tax breaks and rebates?

I suppose if you believed that the things those rebates were intended to promote were wrong, it might be for you. But then presumably you would have had to engage in that behavior yourself in order to be eligible for the rebate, so...

[Razgovory]

It was once considered sinfully to gain money from interest.  It wouldn't take much more to decide that simply the act of taking advantage of tax rebates is morally wrong.

[Jacob]

Is there a moral element in taking advantage of tax breaks and rebates?

I suppose if you believed that the things those rebates were intended to promote were wrong, it might be for you. But then presumably you would have had to engage in that behavior yourself in order to be eligible for the rebate, so...

So if the analogy holds, and I haven't seen anything that suggests it doesn't, then there can be a moral dimension to accepting welfare if you believe that welfare promotes something you believe to be wrong.

Which does seems consistent, in that people who argue against welfare often claim it promotes laziness and mooching. That's not how I see it, of course, so I don't see the alleged moral dimension in accepting welfare either.

As I see it, both tax rebates and welfare are ways to spend public money to incentivize certain behaviour or provide social goods. There is no difference, and no moral dimension to either.