College athletes can unionize, federal agency says

Started by jimmy olsen, March 27, 2014, 12:41:23 AM

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alfred russel

#45
March 27, 2014, 08:37:15 PM
Quote from: sbr on March 27, 2014, 08:20:06 PM

I started to type 'with no exceptions' then second guessed myself but now I am back.  I do not think anyone, even a kicker, could compete in teh NFL right out fo high school.

I remember Adrian Peterson, when he was in high school, talking about maybe jumping straight to the NFL, and people (including me) were like  :frusty:. But then we saw him as a true freshman at OU just flattening people. I don't think I've seen a lineman or QB that was NFL ready out of high school, but "no exceptions" at all positions is a high bar.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

Capetan Mihali

#46
March 27, 2014, 08:38:42 PM
Isn't this kind of a tautology though?  18/19-year-olds aren't ready for the NFL because 18/19-year-olds don't play in the NFL..?
"The internet's completely over. [...] The internet's like MTV. At one time MTV was hip and suddenly it became outdated. Anyway, all these computers and digital gadgets are no good. They just fill your head with numbers and that can't be good for you."
-- Prince, 2010. (R.I.P.)

grumbler

#47
March 27, 2014, 08:40:06 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 27, 2014, 08:37:15 PM
Quote from: sbr on March 27, 2014, 08:20:06 PM

I started to type 'with no exceptions' then second guessed myself but now I am back.  I do not think anyone, even a kicker, could compete in teh NFL right out fo high school.

I remember Adrian Peterson, when he was in high school, talking about maybe jumping straight to the NFL, and people (including me) were like  :frusty:. But then we saw him as a true freshman at OU just flattening people. I don't think I've seen a lineman or QB that was NFL ready out of high school, but "no exceptions" at all positions is a high bar.
I think that you could make the argument that no kid is ready to start in the NFL out of high school, but they are almost never ready to start when they come out of college, either.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

grumbler

#48
March 27, 2014, 08:44:48 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 27, 2014, 08:38:42 PM
Isn't this kind of a tautology though?  18/19-year-olds aren't ready for the NFL because 18/19-year-olds don't play in the NFL..?

I don't think so.  18/19-year-olds are not physically well-enough developed to play in the NFL.  They haven't had the weight training or the dietary support they need until they get to college.  That's not to say that they couldn't play in a D-league.  I think that they can, and should.  College ball should be for those kids that want the college experience.  That works well in hockey and baseball.  An NFL D-league wouldn't be profitable, because of the high costs and limited number of games, but the NFL (and NBA) can afford to lose a few tens of millions a year to develop their own talent.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Capetan Mihali

#49
March 27, 2014, 08:58:45 PM
I'm as clueless about football as Dorsey is about most other things (know one or two things and can turn a decent sentence), but yeah, if the NFL means pro football as played in its current incarnation, then I doubt many 18-year-olds can stand up to flattening by 375 pound fellows in their mid-20s. 

But I get the sense that the whole specter of TBI is increasingly making big hits a less appealing element for the NFL.  I don't know really what the league can do to change the style of play so it is safer for the head, but I imagine it could let them expand into younger players.
"The internet's completely over. [...] The internet's like MTV. At one time MTV was hip and suddenly it became outdated. Anyway, all these computers and digital gadgets are no good. They just fill your head with numbers and that can't be good for you."
-- Prince, 2010. (R.I.P.)

alfred russel

#50
March 27, 2014, 09:04:57 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 27, 2014, 08:44:48 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 27, 2014, 08:38:42 PM
Isn't this kind of a tautology though?  18/19-year-olds aren't ready for the NFL because 18/19-year-olds don't play in the NFL..?

I don't think so.  18/19-year-olds are not physically well-enough developed to play in the NFL.  They haven't had the weight training or the dietary support they need until they get to college.  That's not to say that they couldn't play in a D-league.  I think that they can, and should. 

For the vast majority of athletes, I agree. However, there are some athletes that are 20 when they start playing college ball and have been basically groomed for football with private coaches most of their lives (see Jimmy Clausen).

Also, take Adrian Peterson's scouting report from high school (per wiki, via rivals):

height 6'1 weight 217 40 time 4.3

And then when he went to the NFL:

height 6'1 weight 217 40 time 4.40

So he didn't bulk up at all in college. It isn't inconceivable his 40 yard time dropped in college--he took a lot of abuse on a lot of carries and had some serious injuries that caused him to miss time in 2 of his 3 years. He was an absolutely beast from the time he hit college as well as the NFL. He really didn't show much improvement from the time he got to college to the time he left college--his first year was by all accounts his best, although he was derailed by injury his last two.

The point being: Adrian Peterson was the best running back in college football his true freshman year (I would argue by some distance), he was the same size as he was when he went to the NFL, and sustained a heavy workload without significant injury. Can you really say with certainly he couldn't have contributed to some NFL team that year?
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

grumbler

#51
March 28, 2014, 08:27:23 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 27, 2014, 09:04:57 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 27, 2014, 08:44:48 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 27, 2014, 08:38:42 PM
Isn't this kind of a tautology though?  18/19-year-olds aren't ready for the NFL because 18/19-year-olds don't play in the NFL..?

I don't think so.  18/19-year-olds are not physically well-enough developed to play in the NFL.  They haven't had the weight training or the dietary support they need until they get to college.  That's not to say that they couldn't play in a D-league.  I think that they can, and should. 

For the vast majority of athletes, I agree. However, there are some athletes that are 20 when they start playing college ball and have been basically groomed for football with private coaches most of their lives (see Jimmy Clausen).

Also, take Adrian Peterson's scouting report from high school (per wiki, via rivals):

height 6'1 weight 217 40 time 4.3

And then when he went to the NFL:

height 6'1 weight 217 40 time 4.40

So he didn't bulk up at all in college. It isn't inconceivable his 40 yard time dropped in college--he took a lot of abuse on a lot of carries and had some serious injuries that caused him to miss time in 2 of his 3 years. He was an absolutely beast from the time he hit college as well as the NFL. He really didn't show much improvement from the time he got to college to the time he left college--his first year was by all accounts his best, although he was derailed by injury his last two.

The point being: Adrian Peterson was the best running back in college football his true freshman year (I would argue by some distance), he was the same size as he was when he went to the NFL, and sustained a heavy workload without significant injury. Can you really say with certainly he couldn't have contributed to some NFL team that year?

I am not taking a position on Peterson at all, other than noting that (1) he did bulk up in college, going from 210 (if you believe rivals) or even 205 (sayeth scout) [first lesson:  never trust numbers in Wikipedia] and (2) 217 pounds of weight could be 217 different pounds after three years of weight room and proper diet.

I would agree with you that running back is one of the prime (maybe even THE prime) positions from which a player can contribute immediately or early (just as is true from high school to college).
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

alfred russel

#52
March 28, 2014, 09:28:35 AM
Actually, on reflection I'm going to say Adrian Peterson could have gone straight to the NFL.

If he had the durability and skill to rush for 1900+ yards in the Big 12 and finish second in the heisman voting, he had the durability and skill to at least be a reserve RB and/or special teams contributor in the NFL.

Plus, college conditioning and training really isn't the same as the NFL. If he left school in December and focused on fitness, that would give him 9 months to get ready for opening day. 9 months of hardcore training from a very strong starting position isn't going to outclass 3 years of lesser intensity training interupted with some major injuries (broken collar bone, broken foot) and a bunch of dents and dings.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

Valmy

#53
March 28, 2014, 10:12:51 AM
The NFL would rather College Football weed out the bad players and train their prospects for them.  Sure beats having to pay for a development and minor league system.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

OttoVonBismarck

#54
March 28, 2014, 12:58:32 PM
I've come to dislike the college game, I used to like it more for various reasons but I've come to dislike just about every aspect of college football and prefer NFL in almost all respects. At least part of that is the stupidity of pretending some of these guys are college students or that people who spend 60 hours per week on football are just "student athletes" and not basically minor league football players.

I think the European "club" system for Euro football is a much cleaner system to me and still lets you have a lot of the local/tribal affiliations that make college football so popular.

derspiess

#55
March 28, 2014, 01:05:25 PM
I just want college football to be like it was in the 80s :mellow:
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Ed Anger

#56
March 28, 2014, 01:06:03 PM
I hate the spread offense.
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The Brain

#57
March 28, 2014, 01:14:11 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 28, 2014, 01:06:03 PM
I hate the spread offense.

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sbr

#58
March 28, 2014, 01:25:17 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 28, 2014, 01:06:03 PM
I hate the spread offense.

Three yards and a cloud of yuk.

Valmy

#59
March 28, 2014, 01:26:14 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 28, 2014, 01:05:25 PM
I just want college football to be like it was in the 80s :mellow:

Dominated by Miami? :yuk:

Think how insufferable Dorsey would be.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."
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