Liberation Theology is in - should Yi be concerned?

[grumbler]

The proof of the pudding will be if this pope divests himself of all of those expensive trappings and divests the church of all the trappings of majesty in order to further serve the poor. 

For example refusing to occupy the Apostolic Palace and staying in a single bedroom in a guest house instead? Or wearing a plain white cassock instead of an ermine lined red mozetta? Or driving around in a Ford Focus instead of a bulletproof popemobile? That kind of divesting?

No, like selling the Apostolic palace and the ermine lined red mozetta and the bulletproof popemobile (and the Vatican art collection and the church land holdings and the Vatican bank) and spending that money on the poor.  "Divest" doesn't mean "not use for personal purposes."

[Beenherebefore]

That's one high bar for one Pope to pass.

Are you sure you're not related to Martin Luther, grumbler?

[stjaba]

The proof of the pudding will be if this pope divests himself of all of those expensive trappings and divests the church of all the trappings of majesty in order to further serve the poor. 

For example refusing to occupy the Apostolic Palace and staying in a single bedroom in a guest house instead? Or wearing a plain white cassock instead of an ermine lined red mozetta? Or driving around in a Ford Focus instead of a bulletproof popemobile? That kind of divesting?

No, like selling the Apostolic palace and the ermine lined red mozetta and the bulletproof popemobile (and the Vatican art collection and the church land holdings and the Vatican bank) and spending that money on the poor.  "Divest" doesn't mean "not use for personal purposes."

You mean like selling the papal harley?

Pope Francis' Harley-Davidson Sells for $327,000 at Paris Auction

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/08/automobiles/pope-francis-harley-davidson-sells-for-327000-at-paris-auction.html

I'm not sure what could would come from selling the buildings in the Vatican. The  Church is giant bureaucracy with hundreds of millions of, if not more, adherents (I think the official number is near or over 1 billion). It clearly needs plenty of infrastructure, buildings, etc. to accommodate the faithful, both present and future.

Selling off assets to temporarily give money to the needy sounds good in practice, but in reality is shortsighted and is worse in the long run. As one example, my local  parish used to have an elementary school attached to it. The school had operated for over 50 years without any problems. It was the more modest Catholic parish of the two in the area, but it provided an affordable, parochial education to the community.

A new principal came in and decided to give out a ton of scholarships to make things easier for the current students. In doing so, he drained the endowment. The school quickly went under, and closed a few years ago. Now the neighborhood no longer has an affordable Catholic school. Parents  who want their kids to have a Catholic education have to send them to the further away, more expensive school. While the principal's intentions were kind-hearted, ultimately it was bad for the community and for the members of the parish.

Are certain buildings and religious artifacts owned by the Church unnecessary and overly ritzy? Probably. Should the members of the Church bureaucracy live in luxury? No. On the other hand, the Church seems to believe that beautiful buildings and artifacts have spiritual value. And the current leaders of the Church have a responsibility to be responsible stewards so that the assets of the Church are available to future generations. The Church certainly spends a lot of money and effort on charitable efforts, and the leaders of the Church probably wouldn't be very good stewards if they auctioned off all the Church assets to temporarily give additional funds to the poor.

----

And as a converse to the above anecdote, the Catholic high school I attended is supported in part due to long standing real estate investments. In the 50's, the school moved from downtown out to the suburbs. The Jesuits purchased enough land for not only a high school, but also plenty of surrounding property. They ended up selling some of the extra land, but held onto certain tracts. The tracts they held onto were developed into office parks which generate rental income for the school. The rental income defrays the cost of attendance for low income students. Do office parks have anything to do with Catholicism? Of course not. But those assets directly benefit the needy and it would be silly to sell them off.

[grumbler]

That's one high bar for one Pope to pass.

Are you sure you're not related to Martin Luther, grumbler?

I think Luther actually expected the clergy to live up to its preaching; he was a monk, himself. 

I have no such delusions, but I will point out when the Pope has no clothes.  I don't actually expect him to do what he claims that the Catholic Church should do.  No pope ever has.

Are you sure you aren't related to the Virgin Mary, Norgy?

[alfred russel]

I think Norgy is related to the prodigal son. He once was lost, and now is found. 

[Beenherebefore]

That's one high bar for one Pope to pass.

Are you sure you're not related to Martin Luther, grumbler?

I think Luther actually expected the clergy to live up to its preaching; he was a monk, himself. 

I have no such delusions, but I will point out when the Pope has no clothes.  I don't actually expect him to do what he claims that the Catholic Church should do.  No pope ever has.

Are you sure you aren't related to the Virgin Mary, Norgy?

But this time, the Pope actually is dressed, man.

In the off-chance I am related to the Virgin Mary, tell them I like my pasta al dente.

[grumbler]

You mean like selling the papal harley?

No, since I don't believe there even IS a papal harley.

I'm not sure what could would come from selling the buildings in the Vatican. The  Church is giant bureaucracy with hundreds of millions of, if not more, adherents (I think the official number is near or over 1 billion). It clearly needs plenty of infrastructure, buildings, etc. to accommodate the faithful, both present and future.

You are not sure what could come from selling buildings in the heart of one of the most expensive cities in the world? 

I'll give you a hint:  lots of m _ _ _ _ that could be used to carry out the pope's call for the church to be "poor among the poor.'

If the catholic church needs some HQ buildings, it could surely get them cheaper in another location, like Kigali.

Selling off assets to temporarily give money to the needy sounds good in practice, but in reality is shortsighted and is worse in the long run. As one example, my local  parish used to have an elementary school attached to it. The school had operated for over 50 years without any problems. It was the more modest Catholic parish of the two in the area, but it provided an affordable, parochial education to the community.

A new principal came in and decided to give out a ton of scholarships to make things easier for the current students. In doing so, he drained the endowment. The school quickly went under, and closed a few years ago. Now the neighborhood no longer has an affordable Catholic school. Parents  who want their kids to have a Catholic education have to send them to the further away, more expensive school. While the principal's intentions were kind-hearted, ultimately it was bad for the community and for the members of the parish.

I have no idea what you anecdote has to do with my point.  The Church property in Rome (and elsewhere in the world) could be turned into a lot of cash to help a lot of poor people.  That's what the pope claims he wants to do.  I don't think the pope had anything to do with the school that closed near you.

Are certain buildings and religious artifacts owned by the Church unnecessary and overly ritzy? Probably. Should the members of the Church bureaucracy live in luxury? No. On the other hand, the Church seems to believe that beautiful buildings and artifacts have spiritual value. And the current leaders of the Church have a responsibility to be responsible stewards so that the assets of the Church are available to future generations. The Church certainly spends a lot of money and effort on charitable efforts, and the leaders of the Church probably wouldn't be very good stewards if they auctioned off all the Church assets to temporarily give additional funds to the poor.

I don't disagree with you that the pope's message is all hat and no cattle, and that he can justify failing to follow through on his call to action on the basis of his requirement to be "a responsible steward" for the church's ostentatious wealth so it can be passed down to future generations of popes that are all hat and no cattle.  I just point out that this is hypocrisy.  Jesus never said that his successors should obtain and preserve ostentation.

[crazy canuck]

No, since I don't believe there even IS a papal harley.

You must have faith my son 

[Razgovory]

That's one high bar for one Pope to pass.

Are you sure you're not related to Martin Luther, grumbler?

I think Luther actually expected the clergy to live up to its preaching; he was a monk, himself. 

I have no such delusions, but I will point out when the Pope has no clothes.  I don't actually expect him to do what he claims that the Catholic Church should do.  No pope ever has.

Are you sure you aren't related to the Virgin Mary, Norgy?

Oh goody, we've gone down this path again.  Maybe Grumbler will entertain us with mind reading like he did last time he got on this high horse.

[Beenherebefore]

If the catholic church needs some HQ buildings, it could surely get them cheaper in another location, like Kigali.

Reasonable. The Pope should sell off Vatican City and move to shack in Kigali, Rwanda. That way, he would mean business.

Having lived with disappointment in myself and the world for 40 odd years, I am sure I can live through this not happening and still think Francis is a better pope than most. At the very least, he hasn't sanctioned letting the Ustashe escape through their channels, which is an improvement on at least one pope.

[stjaba]

You are not sure what could come from selling buildings in the heart of one of the most expensive cities in the world? 

I'll give you a hint:  lots of m _ _ _ _ that could be used to carry out the pope's call for the church to be "poor among the poor.'

If the catholic church needs some HQ buildings, it could surely get them cheaper in another location, like Kigali.

The Church needs lots of large buildings to accommodate its needs. The buildings it owns have both historic and religious significance. And the physical location of the buildings have religious significance. If it sold off the buildings, it would have to re-build somewhere else at an enormous cost, in a location without historical or religious significance to the Church or its members. That makes no sense. I am pretty sure you are trolling, but that is fairly obvious.

I have no idea what you anecdote has to do with my point.  The Church property in Rome (and elsewhere in the world) could be turned into a lot of cash to help a lot of poor people.  That's what the pope claims he wants to do.  I don't think the pope had anything to do with the school that closed near you.

My point is that the leaders of the church need to be responsible stewards to protect the future of the church, and the anecdote is an example of poor stewardship leading to disastrous consequences.

I don't disagree with you that the pope's message is all hat and no cattle, and that he can justify failing to follow through on his call to action on the basis of his requirement to be "a responsible steward" for the church's ostentatious wealth so it can be passed down to future generations of popes that are all hat and no cattle.  I just point out that this is hypocrisy.  Jesus never said that his successors should obtain and preserve ostentation.

What you call "ostentatious wealth" in part are assets with historic and religious significance. Other assets exist to help fund the ongoing operations of the church. Is there corruption and unnecessary luxuries within the church? Definitely. Any human institution will be like that. But just because there is some bad doesn't mean the Church shouldn't preserve the good.

And I don't think Jesus really spoke one way or the other as to the overall principles behind  stewardship. That being said, the Church believes that church tradition has theological value. The church has historically maintained assets for the benefit of future generations while also making efforts at helping the poor and others. It seems to have been an effective strategy thus far.

[Sheilbh]

Of course the role of the Church is to be a Church, not in Pope Francis's phrase a 'pitiful NGO'.

Its primary duty to the poor is evangelisation and the sacraments.

He is a celebrity with air time to spout the most basic moralities. "being poor is bad, mkay?" "we should care for the poor" Blah blah blah. I haven't heard the news about the Bank of Vatican launching aid or low interest loan programs for the poor people of the developing world.

The Vatican Bank isn't a bank in that sense. It's being reformed (largely because of Benedict's appointees) which is good, but I don't see how the Church getting involved in financial gamesmanship would help.

[Razgovory]

The Church is human institution and carries with it human needs and flaws, and while they reach for the divine they can never approach the perfection and sublime wisdom that is Grumbler.

[Tamas]

Of course the role of the Church is to be a Church, not in Pope Francis's phrase a 'pitiful NGO'.

Its primary duty to the poor is evangelisation and the sacraments.

He is a celebrity with air time to spout the most basic moralities. "being poor is bad, mkay?" "we should care for the poor" Blah blah blah. I haven't heard the news about the Bank of Vatican launching aid or low interest loan programs for the poor people of the developing world.

The Vatican Bank isn't a bank in that sense. It's being reformed (largely because of Benedict's appointees) which is good, but I don't see how the Church getting involved in financial gamesmanship would help.

That is so convenient for them. They get to preach about people being poor, but they don't have to care about mundane material stuff (obviously being poor have nothing to do with the material world, right). But not having to care apparently also means that they can hoard wealth for the church and themselves.

Seriously dude. Financial gamesmanship? Giving aid for development in the 3rd world using Vatican resources, by forgoing profit, is really that out of line with the loudly proclaimed aims of the Pope?

[Tamas]

The Church is human institution and carries with it human needs and flaws, and while they reach for the divine they can never approach the perfection and sublime wisdom that is Grumbler.

True. But, they should at least try getting close to living up to the expectations they have for everyone else in the world.