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Ukraine's European Revolution?

Started by Sheilbh, December 03, 2013, 07:39:37 AM

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Capetan Mihali

#3570
March 25, 2014, 08:59:01 AM
Oh, and NAFTA caused the current Mexican drug war. :yeah:
"The internet's completely over. [...] The internet's like MTV. At one time MTV was hip and suddenly it became outdated. Anyway, all these computers and digital gadgets are no good. They just fill your head with numbers and that can't be good for you."
-- Prince, 2010. (R.I.P.)

Admiral Yi

#3571
March 25, 2014, 09:00:32 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 25, 2014, 08:45:26 AM
Our efforts to spread our model of global capitalism (e.g. through the World Bank and IMF, persuading/coercing countries into massively disruptive "free market" structural reforms, opposing import-substitution industrialization, etc.) have caused far more total disasters for regular people in the countries affected and have been reminded everybody far more of imperialism than any effort to spread social values...

Can you give an example of one of these total disasters for regular people?

Capetan Mihali

#3572
March 25, 2014, 09:01:48 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2014, 09:00:32 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 25, 2014, 08:45:26 AM
Our efforts to spread our model of global capitalism (e.g. through the World Bank and IMF, persuading/coercing countries into massively disruptive "free market" structural reforms, opposing import-substitution industrialization, etc.) have caused far more total disasters for regular people in the countries affected and have been reminded everybody far more of imperialism than any effort to spread social values...

Can you give an example of one of these total disasters for regular people?

I could, but first I'd like to see an example of where trying to spread "our values" not tied to capitalism has been a total disaster, which was the original claim.
"The internet's completely over. [...] The internet's like MTV. At one time MTV was hip and suddenly it became outdated. Anyway, all these computers and digital gadgets are no good. They just fill your head with numbers and that can't be good for you."
-- Prince, 2010. (R.I.P.)

The Larch

#3573
March 25, 2014, 09:03:29 AM
Ukranian police raided yesterday a Right Sector (far right ultra nationalists) local in Rivne, Western Ukraine, in order to detain several of its leaders on gang charges, and in the ensuing shootout one of its leaders, Oleksandr Muzychko, died. There are apparently conflicting reports on the way he died.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26729273

PDH

#3574
March 25, 2014, 09:04:38 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 25, 2014, 09:01:48 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2014, 09:00:32 AM

Can you give an example of one of these total disasters for regular people?

I could, but first I'd like to see an example of where trying to spread "our values" not tied to capitalism has been a total disaster, which was the original claim.

Whoah, an attempt at reverse Yi-fu.  This was unexpected.
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
-Umberto Eco

-------
"I'm pretty sure my level of depression has nothing to do with how much of a fucking asshole you are."

-CdM

alfred russel

#3575
March 25, 2014, 09:06:02 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 25, 2014, 09:01:48 AM

I could, but first I'd like to see an example of where trying to spread "our values" not tied to capitalism has been a total disaster, which was the original claim.

Germany and Japan.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

derspiess

#3576
March 25, 2014, 09:06:14 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 25, 2014, 08:54:09 AM
At the very least, put the issue to a vote of the UN general assembly, and promise to adhere to the results.

Actually I kind of like that.  Sounds like a win for us either way.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Admiral Yi

#3577
March 25, 2014, 09:06:48 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 25, 2014, 09:01:48 AM
I could, but first I'd like to see an example of where trying to spread "our values" not tied to capitalism has been a total disaster, which was the original claim.

Why?  Is there a connection between the two claims?

Capetan Mihali

#3578
March 25, 2014, 09:16:34 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2014, 09:06:48 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 25, 2014, 09:01:48 AM
I could, but first I'd like to see an example of where trying to spread "our values" not tied to capitalism has been a total disaster, which was the original claim.

Why?  Is there a connection between the two claims?

Only to the extent that one was directly responsive to the other... My original claim was meant to suggest that I thought the assertion that spreading values = disastrous, but spreading capitalism = not disastrous was quite overstating it on both sides of the conjunction.

Anyways: Greece, Argentina, Mexico, etc.

But I don't think I'm up to debating the whole topic of global economic reform at the moment.
"The internet's completely over. [...] The internet's like MTV. At one time MTV was hip and suddenly it became outdated. Anyway, all these computers and digital gadgets are no good. They just fill your head with numbers and that can't be good for you."
-- Prince, 2010. (R.I.P.)

Valmy

#3579
March 25, 2014, 09:23:06 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 25, 2014, 08:59:01 AM
Oh, and NAFTA caused the current Mexican drug war. :yeah:

Nonsense the Drug War predated NAFTA by several years.  And that was just the official kickoff of the drug war, it had actually been going on for decades longer.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

derspiess

#3580
March 25, 2014, 09:29:00 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2014, 09:03:29 AM
Ukranian police raided yesterday a Right Sector (far right ultra nationalists) local in Rivne, Western Ukraine, in order to detain several of its leaders on gang charges, and in the ensuing shootout one of its leaders, Oleksandr Muzychko, died. There are apparently conflicting reports on the way he died.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26729273

:o  Poor Saschka.

But seriously, he was a rather naughty man.  Russia, Ukraine, and the rest of the world are better off without him. 
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Valmy

#3581
March 25, 2014, 09:30:40 AM Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 09:32:46 AM by Valmy
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 25, 2014, 09:16:34 AM
Only to the extent that one was directly responsive to the other... My original claim was meant to suggest that I thought the assertion that spreading values = disastrous, but spreading capitalism = not disastrous was quite overstating it on both sides of the conjunction.

I was thinking about Neo-Conservatism, invasions for regime change and the like.  Acting like we are superior to other countries by trying to force social reforms.  Not exactly a shining record there.

QuoteAnyways: Greece, Argentina, Mexico, etc.

Ok those countries have had problems but they are not exactly Iraq here.  We have yet to find an international economic system that works perfectly for everybody all of the time.  If you have such a system in mind maybe you should share it.  But overall we are seeing remarkable declines in world poverty, I hardly call that a disaster.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Capetan Mihali

#3582
March 25, 2014, 09:30:48 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 25, 2014, 09:23:06 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 25, 2014, 08:59:01 AM
Oh, and NAFTA caused the current Mexican drug war. :yeah:

Nonsense the Drug War predated NAFTA by several years.  And that was just the official kickoff of the drug war, it had actually been going on for decades longer.

I was obviously being flip, but our "War on Drugs" is different from the narco-war that's been raging in Mexico.  And even though you're right that there has been drug-related violence in Mexico for decades, the impression I get from Mexicans is that the current level of violence is wholly unprecedented.  Colombia was the drug war bloodbath country formerly.
"The internet's completely over. [...] The internet's like MTV. At one time MTV was hip and suddenly it became outdated. Anyway, all these computers and digital gadgets are no good. They just fill your head with numbers and that can't be good for you."
-- Prince, 2010. (R.I.P.)

Viking

#3583
March 25, 2014, 09:31:17 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2014, 09:03:29 AM
Ukranian police raided yesterday a Right Sector (far right ultra nationalists) local in Rivne, Western Ukraine, in order to detain several of its leaders on gang charges, and in the ensuing shootout one of its leaders, Oleksandr Muzychko, died. There are apparently conflicting reports on the way he died.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26729273

Is this a Ukraininan "Altalena" style event?
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

derspiess

#3584
March 25, 2014, 09:32:03 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 25, 2014, 09:16:34 AM
Anyways: Greece, Argentina, Mexico, etc.

But I don't think I'm up to debating the whole topic of global economic reform at the moment.

Greece has always been a blind spot for me.  Never could bring myself to pay a whole lot of attention.  Mexico I will agree with.  I know you don't want to debate, but what is your case re: Argentina.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall
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