Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Capetan Mihali]

Oh, and NAFTA caused the current Mexican drug war.

[Admiral Yi]

Our efforts to spread our model of global capitalism (e.g. through the World Bank and IMF, persuading/coercing countries into massively disruptive "free market" structural reforms, opposing import-substitution industrialization, etc.) have caused far more total disasters for regular people in the countries affected and have been reminded everybody far more of imperialism than any effort to spread social values...

Can you give an example of one of these total disasters for regular people?

[Capetan Mihali]

Our efforts to spread our model of global capitalism (e.g. through the World Bank and IMF, persuading/coercing countries into massively disruptive "free market" structural reforms, opposing import-substitution industrialization, etc.) have caused far more total disasters for regular people in the countries affected and have been reminded everybody far more of imperialism than any effort to spread social values...

Can you give an example of one of these total disasters for regular people?

I could, but first I'd like to see an example of where trying to spread "our values" not tied to capitalism has been a total disaster, which was the original claim.

[The Larch]

Ukranian police raided yesterday a Right Sector (far right ultra nationalists) local in Rivne, Western Ukraine, in order to detain several of its leaders on gang charges, and in the ensuing shootout one of its leaders, Oleksandr Muzychko, died. There are apparently conflicting reports on the way he died.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26729273

[PDH]

Can you give an example of one of these total disasters for regular people?

I could, but first I'd like to see an example of where trying to spread "our values" not tied to capitalism has been a total disaster, which was the original claim.

Whoah, an attempt at reverse Yi-fu.  This was unexpected.

[alfred russel]

I could, but first I'd like to see an example of where trying to spread "our values" not tied to capitalism has been a total disaster, which was the original claim.

Germany and Japan.

[derspiess]

At the very least, put the issue to a vote of the UN general assembly, and promise to adhere to the results.

Actually I kind of like that.  Sounds like a win for us either way.

[Admiral Yi]

I could, but first I'd like to see an example of where trying to spread "our values" not tied to capitalism has been a total disaster, which was the original claim.

Why?  Is there a connection between the two claims?

[Capetan Mihali]

I could, but first I'd like to see an example of where trying to spread "our values" not tied to capitalism has been a total disaster, which was the original claim.

Why?  Is there a connection between the two claims?

Only to the extent that one was directly responsive to the other... My original claim was meant to suggest that I thought the assertion that spreading values = disastrous, but spreading capitalism = not disastrous was quite overstating it on both sides of the conjunction.

Anyways: Greece, Argentina, Mexico, etc.

But I don't think I'm up to debating the whole topic of global economic reform at the moment.

[Valmy]

Oh, and NAFTA caused the current Mexican drug war.

Nonsense the Drug War predated NAFTA by several years.  And that was just the official kickoff of the drug war, it had actually been going on for decades longer.

[derspiess]

Ukranian police raided yesterday a Right Sector (far right ultra nationalists) local in Rivne, Western Ukraine, in order to detain several of its leaders on gang charges, and in the ensuing shootout one of its leaders, Oleksandr Muzychko, died. There are apparently conflicting reports on the way he died.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26729273

  Poor Saschka.

But seriously, he was a rather naughty man.  Russia, Ukraine, and the rest of the world are better off without him. 

[Valmy]

Only to the extent that one was directly responsive to the other... My original claim was meant to suggest that I thought the assertion that spreading values = disastrous, but spreading capitalism = not disastrous was quite overstating it on both sides of the conjunction.

I was thinking about Neo-Conservatism, invasions for regime change and the like.  Acting like we are superior to other countries by trying to force social reforms.  Not exactly a shining record there.

Anyways: Greece, Argentina, Mexico, etc.

Ok those countries have had problems but they are not exactly Iraq here.  We have yet to find an international economic system that works perfectly for everybody all of the time.  If you have such a system in mind maybe you should share it.  But overall we are seeing remarkable declines in world poverty, I hardly call that a disaster.

[Capetan Mihali]

Oh, and NAFTA caused the current Mexican drug war.

Nonsense the Drug War predated NAFTA by several years.  And that was just the official kickoff of the drug war, it had actually been going on for decades longer.

I was obviously being flip, but our "War on Drugs" is different from the narco-war that's been raging in Mexico.  And even though you're right that there has been drug-related violence in Mexico for decades, the impression I get from Mexicans is that the current level of violence is wholly unprecedented.  Colombia was the drug war bloodbath country formerly.

[Viking]

Ukranian police raided yesterday a Right Sector (far right ultra nationalists) local in Rivne, Western Ukraine, in order to detain several of its leaders on gang charges, and in the ensuing shootout one of its leaders, Oleksandr Muzychko, died. There are apparently conflicting reports on the way he died.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26729273

Is this a Ukraininan "Altalena" style event?

[derspiess]

Anyways: Greece, Argentina, Mexico, etc.

But I don't think I'm up to debating the whole topic of global economic reform at the moment.

Greece has always been a blind spot for me.  Never could bring myself to pay a whole lot of attention.  Mexico I will agree with.  I know you don't want to debate, but what is your case re: Argentina.