A giant Teutonic brothel - Has liberalization gone too far?

[Sheilbh]

I don't think that is a fair comparison though - there were a lot of other things about that society that were very different, especially how it relates to women and their power and control over themselves.

From the Der Spiegel article:

When the Pussy Club opened near Stuttgart in 2009, the management advertised the club as follows: "Sex with all women as long as you want, as often as you want and the way you want. Sex. Anal sex. Oral sex without a condom. Three-ways. Group sex. Gang bangs." The price: €70 during the day and €100 in the evening.

According to the police, about 1,700 customers took advantage of the offer on the opening weekend. Buses arrived from far away and local newspapers reported that up to 700 men stood in line outside the brothel. Afterwards, customers wrote in Internet chat rooms about the supposedly unsatisfactory service, complaining that the women were no longer as fit for use after a few hours.

Around 20% of German men have used a prostitute - to me that sounds like it's moving towards a norm.

In fact, I would argue that the society you are talking about had vastly more fundamental issues in how it treated women, and their right to make their own choices, and even their view of a woman's own ability to make her own rational choices, as being the true issue to be had with that look into gender roles. And your attitude towards women seems to be much more in line with that fundamental view, that women are not capable of making their own informed choices about their sexuality and what it means to them.

I understand that but I think it's superficial. To me this seems like another sexual liberation of women that's primarily benefiting men.

[Valmy]

I understand that but I think it's superficial. To me this seems like another sexual liberation of women that's primarily benefiting men.

I don't really see the vast benefits of having my daughter nabbed by some sex trader.  But I guess only johns count as men?

[Sheilbh]

I don't think that's an accurate description of Germany. Maybe I am just prudish and have a prudish social circle, but I would say that it has a very high social stigma. There is no acceptance for it on an individual level, only on a more anonymous societal level.

No social stigma's a bit strong. But as I say from what I've read about 20% of men have used prostitutes and there's a high number that do so routinely. I think if it's present and available then that'll increase over time and the stigma will decline.

[garbon]

And your attitude towards women seems to be much more in line with that fundamental view, that women are not capable of making their own informed choices about their sexuality and what it means to them.

[Sheilbh]

I am skeptical about those trafficking and involuntary estimates.

I think you're naive/optimistic

[garbon]

I don't think that's an accurate description of Germany. Maybe I am just prudish and have a prudish social circle, but I would say that it has a very high social stigma. There is no acceptance for it on an individual level, only on a more anonymous societal level.

No social stigma's a bit strong. But as I say from what I've read about 20% of men have used prostitutes and there's a high number that do so routinely. I think if it's present and available then that'll increase over time and the stigma will decline.

My super quick search revealed 15-20% for Americans.

[The Brain]

I think that victimless crimes should be kept to a minimum in modern society. They are horrible.

FYI, when prostitution was legal in Sweden it was socially unacceptable in polite society to use their services.

[Admiral Yi]

I think you're naive/optimistic

I think you're a Catholic prude who's susceptible to feminazi propaganda.  So we're even.

[Eddie Teach]

Feminists criminalised it - on the men. I am entirely supportive of, in Julian Assange's words, the Saudi Arabia of feminism

Being a feminist doesn't stop someone from being a paternalist. Just from calling herself one.

[Berkut]

The article does not support this rather extreme position.  In fact it says trafficking may have decreased.  Where are you getting this from?

There's two academic studies, one by a German university and one by LSE which both indicate that trafficking increases when prostitution is legalised.

Could you define trafficking fr me? I think maybe I don't understand what you mean..."

Given that 75% of prostitutes in Germany are from abroad and most, not just Eastern Europe, but Romania and Bulgaria (who aren't part of the free movement of labour in the EU) yet would further suggest there's more trafficking than is being caught.

I don't follow.

If we find that in any particular job, if more people doing the job are from somewhere else, does that mean we should make the job illegal because there must be trafficking?

Similarly the EU estimates that 23 000 people have been trafficked within the EU, around two-thirds for sexual purposes (lower than the global average estimated by the UN).

You seem to have a serious problem with trafficking. Why not address that?

[Zanza]

I just googled a bit in German sources. The only thing that is common among all of them is that there seem to be very few statistics about every aspect of prostitution, be it the number of prostitutes, the number of clients, the revenue of the industry, human trafficking etc. The conservative and reputable FAZ had a recent article on it which stated as much and pointed out that the whole debate is very ideological and few hard facts are actually known.

[Berkut]

I just googled a bit in German sources. The only thing that is common among all of them is that there seem to be very few statistics about every aspect of prostitution, be it the number of prostitutes, the number of clients, the revenue of the industry, human trafficking etc. The conservative and reputable FAZ had a recent article on it which stated as much and pointed out that the whole debate is very ideological and few hard facts are actually known.

That is certainly what this discussion feels like - people are just kind of assuming the results they want to be the case to support their pre-conceived notions.

[derspiess]

My super quick search revealed 15-20% for Americans.

That seems awfully high.  As many as one in five guys has banged a hooker?

[Valmy]

Yeah that is pretty crazy.  You cannot even slip across the border to Mexico for it anymore (well...safely anyway).

[garbon]

Yeah that is pretty crazy.  You cannot even slip across the border to Mexico for it anymore (well...safely anyway).

But it is pretty easy to engage the services of an escort.