The Government Shutdown Countdown Lowdown MEGATHREAD

[Berkut]

Clearly he is a RINO.

If you are not full-on, Tea Party crazy, you are a RINO.

Just like Dems that are Blue Dogs aren't really Dems at all.

We've had those debates countless of times before, but party loyalty is not an unqualified bad.  Only too much or too little is bad.  I know it's hard to see why we need to have parties right now, given a low-level civil war in progress in our country, but they do have an important function.

The problem is that you defined "too little" as "any amount that does not result in people in my party voting against what I think they ought to oppose, or voting against what I think they should support".

And no, that is most certainly NOT "too little" when it comes to a decent chunk of the Dem party standing up against the Tea Party equivalent. Lucky for us moderates, that equivalent in the Dem party was very weakened by the demands of people like you (I am exaggerating - I don't think you are nearly as balls out crazy as the Tea Party wing of the Republicans) that they roll over to the radicals, and in fact the moderates won control (and then the Presidency and control of government).

Sadly, the Republicans went the opposite way, so now there is only one sane choice in US politics anymore.

On the other hand, it does kind of vindicate my stance on the importance of moderates, and the importance of the even not-so-moderates (but not balls out crazy) understanding that if the moderates are balking, it likely means you are trying to push something that most Americans are going to not be happy with.

[garbon]

DG's Christie haterade in 3,2,1.......

I don't buy his shtick, and I think that he's a liar and an asshole, but I don't find him particularly loathsome as a politician.

[Ideologue]

Clearly he is a RINO.

If you are not full-on, Tea Party crazy, you are a RINO.

Just like Dems that are Blue Dogs aren't really Dems at all.

If Democrats were as disciplined as the GOP, the state would have withered away by now.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Just what important function to parties perform?

[derspiess]

It's a label.  Labels are important.

[Sheilbh]

Just what important function to parties perform?

Organisation, coherence and choice. At a very basic level they're a symptom of thriving civil society.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Choice in what?  Organization at this point seems to have won out over competence at making and executing policy or even vision.  Local elections are good only to gerrymander teh shit out of Federal districts, etc. 

[DGuller]

Clearly he is a RINO.

If you are not full-on, Tea Party crazy, you are a RINO.

Just like Dems that are Blue Dogs aren't really Dems at all.

We've had those debates countless of times before, but party loyalty is not an unqualified bad.  Only too much or too little is bad.  I know it's hard to see why we need to have parties right now, given a low-level civil war in progress in our country, but they do have an important function.

The problem is that you defined "too little" as "any amount that does not result in people in my party voting against what I think they ought to oppose, or voting against what I think they should support".

And no, that is most certainly NOT "too little" when it comes to a decent chunk of the Dem party standing up against the Tea Party equivalent. Lucky for us moderates, that equivalent in the Dem party was very weakened by the demands of people like you (I am exaggerating - I don't think you are nearly as balls out crazy as the Tea Party wing of the Republicans) that they roll over to the radicals, and in fact the moderates won control (and then the Presidency and control of government).

Sadly, the Republicans went the opposite way, so now there is only one sane choice in US politics anymore.

On the other hand, it does kind of vindicate my stance on the importance of moderates, and the importance of the even not-so-moderates (but not balls out crazy) understanding that if the moderates are balking, it likely means you are trying to push something that most Americans are going to not be happy with.

You weren't kidding when you said you were exaggerating.

[DGuller]

Just what important function to parties perform?

The same function that alliances serve in geopolitics.  It's a union of people that for the most part share the principles and goals, organized to further them more effectively.  That analogy also serves to show why too much or too little loyalty is a bad thing.  You don't want all of NATO to mobilize any time some shitty country on the periphery launches an ill-advised attack on another shitty country on the periphery.  However, you also don't want half of NATO to join Russia if it attacks Germany, because then you don't really have an alliance at all.

[Sheilbh]

Choice in what?

For the electorate. Vote Labour for this manifesto, vote Tory for this manifesto, vote Lib Dem for this palimpsest of lunacy.

Organization at this point seems to have won out over competence at making and executing policy or even vision.  Local elections are good only to gerrymander teh shit out of Federal districts, etc.

I don't know what you mean about organisation.

The problem with the last bit is the system not the parties.

[Viking]

Just what important function to parties perform?

In the US? To enable each side of politics to arrange competitive elections in a first past the post system.
In the rest of the world? To develop advocate and implement policies. 

[derspiess]

In the rest of the world? To develop advocate and implement policies. 

And to send kids to political summer camps

That one still perplexes me a bit.

[Neil]

In the rest of the world? To develop advocate and implement policies. 

And to send kids to political summer camps

That one still perplexes me a bit.

Think of them like the religious summer camps that exist in the US.

[Viking]

In the rest of the world? To develop advocate and implement policies. 

And to send kids to political summer camps

That one still perplexes me a bit.

It's part of the local culture. Part of a long tradition of creating alternatives to politically motivated recreational activities from the other side. This particular camp is part of a nearly 80+ year old tradition which was a response to church run summer camps that did indoctrinate religion and later fascist style summer camps that did the same. The summer camp aspect of this has been lost for years. This is a summer camp which has morphed over time into being the annual convention of the labour party youth organization. Plus, it's not really a summer camp in the american sense. About 250 people camp out and socialize while each afternoon there is some discussion and/or workshop related to politics and in the evening a prominent politician comes and talks to the kids and after that they get drunk and have sex in the bushes.

Basically this is part of recruiting the next generation of politicians, not indoctrinating the sheeple.

[OttoVonBismarck]

It looks like word is Boehner is going to the White House this evening with a six week increase of the debt ceiling with no conditions attached. No mention on a CR. I assumed a short-term "clean" bill was the only real possible outcome here. The President had drawn too deep a line on "no negotiations during the shutdown/threat of default", and the Republicans obviously have no ability to even get the President to negotiate if they funded government for a year or something like that. So short term legislation was really the only outcome I could see that would work for both sides. It'll be interesting to see if a negotiation actually happens during the window, or if we're just shut down again in six weeks.