Court ruling fires British debate on Muslim veils

[Ed Anger]

I'm wearing a Batman mask.

How is your sex-life relevant to this discussion?

I'm the goddamn Batman

[Ideologue]

Monkeybutt's sex party: Dorothy, the Tin Man, the Cowardly Lion, and the Bat.

[Sheilbh]

Does Yookay have the right to not self-incriminate?  If so this judgement seems pretty moot.

It was moot in the UK use of the word

From reading the judgement the issue came up when he asked her to remove the niqab for identification. But the court decided on a wider point of defendants in niqabs. The goal was to establish a definitive ruling for this trial but also one that could be used by lower courts until it's taken to the High Court, rather than wasting time (and money) arguing the point at each trial - as I say this isn't the first time this has come up, but I think it's the first time a judge has tried to rule definitively.

So he seems to imply that in the UK, the manifestation of religious belief is NOT equal in status to the right to a fair trial.

Manifestation of religious belief is a qualified right under the ECHR. It can be limited.

The ECHR has a number of absolute rights - to belief, to not be tortured - and then qualified rights - to privacy and family life, to manifestations of belief.

Given the importance of European law in human rights the principle of proportionality is pretty key. However even prior to the Human Rights Act the courts tended to place a lot of weight on access to justice and right to a fair trial as part of the rule of law.

This judge says that, despite the very recency of the conversion, he declined to make any inquiry as to the authenticity of her belief.  Which I think went to the ruling he ultimately wanted to make.

I think he was right though. As he says it would be unseemly and very subjective for a secular court to be establishing the sincerity of someone's belief and could easily as he put it 'smack of religious inquisition' or turn into a 'no true Scotsman' conversation.

I think the directions the judge gives are pretty reasonable:

(1) The defendant must comply with all directions given by the Court to enable her to be properly identified at any stage of the proceedings.
(2) The defendant is free to wear the niqaab during trial, except while giving evidence.
(3) The defendant may not give evidence wearing the niqaab.
(4) The defendant may give evidence from behind a screen shielding her from public view, but not from the view of the judge, the jury, and counsel; or by mean of a live TV link.
(5) Photographs and filming are never permitted in court. But in this case, I also order that no drawing, sketch or other image of any kind of the defendant while her face is uncovered be made in court, or disseminated, or published outside court

[mongers]

All of the,admittedly few niqab wearing women I've spoken about this subject have said adopting/wearing it was a conscious political statement.

My guess as to their background would be an even 50-50% between British Asian muslims and British afro-Caribbean young women who've converted to Islam. 

[Admiral Yi]

It was moot in the UK use of the word

Which is?

[Sheilbh]

Which is?

Arguable, open to debate, doubtful - a point that hasn't been settled (or perhaps can't be). My understanding of the American meaning is that it's hypothetical, academic, almost theoretical - it may be arguable but it's practically irrelevant.

[Ed Anger]

Monkeybutt's sex party: Dorothy, the Tin Man, the Cowardly Lion, and the Bat.

Violates the prime directive. Too much cock.

[Ideologue]

I wanted to make a Venture Bros. reference.

[Ed Anger]

I wanted to make a Venture Bros. reference.

Sorry. The mere thought of another penis in the area makes me ill. Barf.

[Jacob]

I wanted to make a Venture Bros. reference.

Sorry. The mere thought of another penis in the area makes me ill. Barf.

Just picture tinman and cowardly lion as really hot chicks on some of those "sexy halloween" costumes

[Admiral Yi]

Don't see how you sex up tinman.  He's a metal tube.

[dps]

Don't see how you sex up tinman.  He's a metal tube.

A woman or gay man might find that appealing, though he' probably a bit too large for most.

[Ed Anger]

I wanted to make a Venture Bros. reference.

Sorry. The mere thought of another penis in the area makes me ill. Barf.

Just picture tinman and cowardly lion as really hot chicks on some of those "sexy halloween" costumes

That sounds dangerously homosexual.

[Ideologue]

Don't see how you sex up tinman.  He's a metal tube.

In other words, perfection?

[Jacob]

Don't see how you sex up tinman.  He's a metal tube.

Same way as you sex up any other costume for halloween. Lots of bare flesh and a few items from the following list: knee high stockings, body hugging clothes, short skirt, short shorts, extra support for the boobs etc...