Montana judge defends 30-day sentence for rape

[DGuller]

Like I said, there isn't any evidence that there is any such link.

Since when isn't a statement in court evidence?

Auliea Hanlon testified earlier at the hearing that her daughter's relationship with Rambold was a "major factor" in her suicide, and she begged the judge to order Rambold to prison.

"Please put him behind bars," the woman said.

Chief Deputy County Attorney Rod Souza had asked the judge to order Rambold to serve 20 years in prison, with 10 years suspended.

Souza said Rambold targeted a troubled young girl and violated his position of trust as a teacher by engaging in a sexual relationship with a student.

Read more: http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/former-senior-high-teacher-gets-days-for-rape-of-student/article_b1f84190-ef23-5868-8799-b779c0421dc1.html#ixzz2dIjVBLJS

Regardless of the legal definition of what is and isn't evidence, surely this kind of testimony cannot be considered in any way reliable, on its own anyway.  I'm not going to insult your intelligence by explaining why.

[Berkut]

Like I said, there isn't any evidence that there is any such link.

Since when isn't a statement in court evidence?

Auliea Hanlon testified earlier at the hearing that her daughter's relationship with Rambold was a "major factor" in her suicide, and she begged the judge to order Rambold to prison.

"Please put him behind bars," the woman said.

Chief Deputy County Attorney Rod Souza had asked the judge to order Rambold to serve 20 years in prison, with 10 years suspended.

Souza said Rambold targeted a troubled young girl and violated his position of trust as a teacher by engaging in a sexual relationship with a student.

Read more: http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/former-senior-high-teacher-gets-days-for-rape-of-student/article_b1f84190-ef23-5868-8799-b779c0421dc1.html#ixzz2dIjVBLJS

It isn't any evidence that I find compelling.

I mean, if that was my daughter, no matter how minor I might consider his role in her death might be, my emotional stance will be 100% that I want him as severly punished as possible, and hence would absolutely testify that his actions were responsible for her death.

Which is why my testimony should not be given much weight, especially compared to testimony from actual professionals who might have had a chance to evaluate the girl in question, he mental state before and after the rape, and what role the rape may have had (or not had) in her death.

I know this is all very tedious and not nearly as exciting as "OMG HE RAPED HER THEN SHE KILLED HERSELF!", so feel free to ignore me and carry on with the outraging.

[Berkut]

By her own hand. He didn't kill her.

I think this is where we differ the most. I believe - as does her mother - that this man's relationship with this girl was a huge factor in her deciding that she'd rather be dead that alive. His actions were a cause in her death.

I find your opinion on the matter about as compelling as her mothers.

[Maximus]

Regardless of the legal definition of what is and isn't evidence, surely this kind of testimony cannot be considered in any way reliable, on its own anyway.  I'm not going to insult your intelligence by explaining why.

But when the judge weasels out of a damning statement, that's unassailable.

[merithyn]

So him stating that it was not relevant to the sentencing doesn't actually matter in the issue of "his sentencing".

Gotcha. Rage on.

Where does he say that? He said that because she was as culpable as the adult teacher was, it wasn't the same thing as rape-rape. I don't remember him saying anywhere that it didn't actually matter in his sentencing. Just that, you know, talking to kids without telling anyone wasn't a good enough reason to sentence him to 10 years. Which makes sense, I guess, if fucking one wasn't, why would talking to them?

[merithyn]

I'm not going to insult your intelligence by explaining why.

That's a nice change.

[Tonitrus]

It's impermissible evidence.  It's hearsay.

If it were the last thing she talked to her mother about, could it pass "dying declaration" muster?

[Neil]

...

And this is how you end up with mandatory minimums.  Women freak out and politicians pass crazy bills.

Oh, yeah, and lawyers are bad, blah blah blah.

[Ideologue]

It's impermissible evidence.  It's hearsay.

If it were the last thing she talked to her mother about, could it pass "dying declaration" muster?

Possibly, but 803(3), statement of present mental state, would also be germane.

Actually, was it a sentencing hearing?  Rules of evidence wouldn't apply anyway.

[merithyn]

It isn't any evidence that I find compelling.

I mean, if that was my daughter, no matter how minor I might consider his role in her death might be, my emotional stance will be 100% that I want him as severly punished as possible, and hence would absolutely testify that his actions were responsible for her death.

Which is why my testimony should not be given much weight, especially compared to testimony from actual professionals who might have had a chance to evaluate the girl in question, he mental state before and after the rape, and what role the rape may have had (or not had) in her death.

While I agree with this mostly, I also don't doubt that her mother would have known how much the relationship affected her daughter far more than just about anyone else. There's a huge difference between, "It was entirely consensual and the girl was older than her years" and "This relationship so affected my daughter that it was a major factor in why she killed herself."

And for what it's worth, I feel like the judge was between a rock and a hard place. I'm upset at the sentencing (and his justification for it), but he was going off what had already been agreed upon. If the prosecutors were okay with a 15-year suspended sentence before, it seems incongruous that they would suddenly - when the spotlight's now on them - ask for 10 years behind bars.

The reason I'm pissed off is that a suspended sentence is, imo, ridiculous for this crime. He deserves time behind bars for what he did.

[Tonitrus]

It's impermissible evidence.  It's hearsay.

If it were the last thing she talked to her mother about, could it pass "dying declaration" muster?

Possibly, but 803(3), statement of present mental state, would also be germane.

Actually, was it a sentencing hearing?  Rules of evidence wouldn't apply anyway.

Then the fact that it might be hearsay is irrelevant. 

[Berkut]

So him stating that it was not relevant to the sentencing doesn't actually matter in the issue of "his sentencing".

Gotcha. Rage on.

Where does he say that?

"What I said is demeaning of all women, not what I believe and irrelevant to the sentencing.

He said that because she was as culpable as the adult teacher was,

Nope, he never said that. In fact, he said exactly the opposite of that. He said the adult was guilty and it was not possible for her to consent. Hence, from the standpoint of culpability (which, btw, means "blame"), the blame was 100% on the teacher. That is what he said.

"Obviously, a 14-year-old can't consent."

it wasn't the same thing as rape-rape.

No, he said that because she had as much control over the situation as the teacher, it was not a forcible rape.

Which is simply true. All your anger and rage doesn't change that, and you aren't even arguing that it isn't the case.

This was a clear case of STATUTORY rape. I don't know what "rape-rape" is, and the judge certianly never uses that term. He simply states that is was not "beat up rape", ie not forcible.

Are you arguing that?

I don't remember him saying anywhere that it didn't actually matter in his sentencing. Just that, you know, talking to kids without telling anyone wasn't a good enough reason to sentence him to 10 years.

It isn't.

Which makes sense, I guess, if fucking one wasn't, why would talking to them?

Indeed.

[mongers]

This thread won't end well.  :nostradamus:

[Berkut]

It's impermissible evidence.  It's hearsay.

If it were the last thing she talked to her mother about, could it pass "dying declaration" muster?

Possibly, but 803(3), statement of present mental state, would also be germane.

Actually, was it a sentencing hearing?  Rules of evidence wouldn't apply anyway.

But certainly rules of common sense would apply. And no judge should just accept what the victims mother says about the victims suicidal motives at face value in contravention to other evidence to the contrary.

[Ideologue]

It's impermissible evidence.  It's hearsay.

If it were the last thing she talked to her mother about, could it pass "dying declaration" muster?

Possibly, but 803(3), statement of present mental state, would also be germane.

Actually, was it a sentencing hearing?  Rules of evidence wouldn't apply anyway.

Then the fact that it might be hearsay is irrelevant. 

It's unclear whether the testimony was at a sentencing hearing.  Unless I'm missing it in the articles (I did a word search), I don't know where Meri's "mother testified" quote comes from.