Richard Dawkins criticised for Twitter comment about Muslims

[Razgovory]

Those countries don't lack resources, they lack size.

Israel has no resources to speak of, Hungary not much more, whereas the Gulf states have some of the highest per capita incomes in the world.

What Israel has in abundance is human capital, which is sort of the point.

What sort of resources are we talking about?

[Sheilbh]

Yeah. I really don't understand that argument.

And by the by I'm not necessarily arguing against the idea that 'Islam has stultified intellectual inquiry in the Muslim world.' I'm not sure. But Dawkins tweets and his longer defence of them are a bit of a non-sequitur.

He made exactly the same point as Yi, 'But . . . oil wealth? Might it be more equitably deployed amongst the populace of those countries that happen to sit on the accidental geological boon of oil. Is this an example of something that Muslims might consider to improve the education of their children?' That's a fair point but, again, doesn't seem to make his point and, again, surely the relevant comparison is other petrostates.

[Admiral Yi]

Why is that Shelf?  Why is the whole of humanity not a valid comparison?

[Razgovory]

Oh, and Yi do you believe that, 'Islam has stultified intellectual inquiry in the Muslim world.'

[Admiral Yi]

I think it's a defensible thesis.

[Razgovory]

I think it's a defensible thesis.

Very well, then what has "Stultified intellectual inquiry" in China, S. Korea, India, Latin America and the non Muslim parts of Africa?

[Sheilbh]

It's valid, it's not terribly useful though.

If you're saying the important aspect is Islam then surely you'd want to try and compare with otherwise similar situations to eliminate as many of the other variables as possible. Though obviously that's never entirely possible.

So there's around 1.6 billion Muslims the vast majority of whom live in developing countries. Comparing their number of Nobel laureates against a world-class seat of research in a developed country with a long history of higher education tells you less about Islam's impact than comparing it against, say, India or China which are largely not Muslim but also diverse and developing. And of course though we don't hear a great deal about India or China saving Greek science for the West we do hear a lot about their scientific histories - Indian numbers and mathematics, the advances of the Chinese Empire and so on.

He could've made the exact same point about two-thirds of the world based on all sorts of groupings. It's a fact, it doesn't necessarily lead on or to anything. That's why it reminds me of the Greco-Roman moan about gay marriage, it's terribly tangential.

I think it's a defensible thesis.

Which is fine but that's a different argument. It doesn't lead from Dawkins point.

[Admiral Yi]

Very well, then what has "Stultified intellectual inquiry" in China, S. Korea, India, Latin America and the non Muslim parts of Africa?

China: Before the Communist victory, a culture that prized the maintenance of the status quo as the highest virtue.  Under Mao, Communism.

S. Korea: until about 1970, grinding poverty.  Then they started to do pretty well.

Sub-Saharan Africa: grinding poverty.

India: I don't know.  The country produces some of the best mathematical minds in the world.  Why they aren't more involved I don't know.

Latin America: I don't know.

[Razgovory]

Very well, then what has "Stultified intellectual inquiry" in China, S. Korea, India, Latin America and the non Muslim parts of Africa?

China: Before the Communist victory, a culture that prized the maintenance of the status quo as the highest virtue.  Under Mao, Communism.

S. Korea: until about 1970, grinding poverty.  Then they started to do pretty well.

Sub-Saharan Africa: grinding poverty.

India: I don't know.  The country produces some of the best mathematical minds in the world.  Why they aren't more involved I don't know.

Latin America: I don't know.

It would seem to me that poverty can apply to all of those countries.  In fact, it's a common thread that applies to them and the Muslim world.

[chipwich]

Only a few people on the internet seemed to point out that out that Trinity College is short for "The Master, Fellows and Scholars of the College of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity. "

[Tamas]

I think it's quite obvious.  Islam has stultified intellectual inquiry in the Muslim world.

But how does he actually make that point?

As it is it just looks like the 'look what happened to Greeks/Romans' argument against gay marriage. It seems maybe slightly interesting but totally off-point.

There was something mentioned about some islam people claiming "BUT LOOK AT OUR SCIENTIFIC ACHIEVEMENTS ZOMG!!!!1111oneoneoneone" and Dawkins merely pointed out: "what scientific achievments"

they still to live off the fact that they had the lead for like a couple of centuries a thousand years ago. It is not a problem if somebody points it out to them that, well, it was a thousand years ago.

In a related issue, I only recently realised, that the Caliphate, that oh-awesome golden age all radicals are yearning to re-establish, lasted for what, 70 years? That's probably worse than Romanians claiming one of their robber barons united their country first in the 1600s because he actually held Transylvanian ground for a couple of years.

[Ideologue]

So what?  The American Golden Age only lasted for about fifteen.

[Tamas]

So what?  The American Golden Age only lasted for about fifteen.

yeah but referencing the caliphate 1400 years after it happened like the Way Things Are Supposed To Be Normally, is quite a push

[Tamas]

also there is an other thing here which is spot on: this guy has been trashing Christianity regularly, and nobody gave a damn. He makes one comment on Islam and gets all this shit thrown at him.

And, as a teacher of mine once said: you can only be offended about something that is true.

[Viking]

also there is an other thing here which is spot on: this guy has been trashing Christianity regularly, and nobody gave a damn. He makes one comment on Islam and gets all this shit thrown at him.

And, as a teacher of mine once said: you can only be offended about something that is true.

I have take issue with that. When he has been trashing christianity he still shit thrown at him. It's just right wing and christian shit. Now that he takes on Islam he gets left wing and islamic shit thrown at him. Success is to Islam what Morality is the Christianity; a supposed confirmation and necessary consequence of the faith. Christians lose their marbles when you show that you can be morally good without god and mooselimbs lose their marbles (more than usual) when you show that you can be successful without submitting.