McDonalds: "What, my peon, you don't work two full time jobs?"

[mongers]

You might be as bad as hunters. 

Irresponsible off roaders are worst than poachers, I've seen trash and pure destruction you cannot imagine.

They're also more responsible for medivacs.  Lots of head and spine injuries doing Snake Canyon bullshit.

So those are literally tossers ?

[merithyn]

The register that I worked on at Hardee's in college was not a simple tool. It took quite a bit of time to learn how to work it, what to do if you made a mistake, how to make changes to menu items, etc. They may be designed to be more simple than the software that I use today, but they are not simple tools.

The register I see when I go into a fast food place is quite a simple machine, with just pictures on it for the food choices, and an automatic change dispenser.  It is possible that such a thing wasn't possible back when you were in college, but then cashiers haven't always been minimum-wage workers, either.

None of which addresses the bolded part.

You've seen them. I've worked with them (within the last few years as a bookstore clerk). They are not simple tools. They require a modicum of ability to be able to use them. They are not as simple as the calculator/registers of the 1960s and 1970s. There is an increased level of skill required to do the cashier's job.

That was the entire point. Garbon claimed that minimum wage jobs today are easier, mentally, than they were before. I disagree. I've explained why I disagree.

[merithyn]

Though I'll point out to Meri et al that POS systems are in fact extremely simple applications.

For someone who just graduated from law school, yes. For someone who probably didn't graduate from high school? Not so much.

[Eddie Teach]

Though I'll point out to Meri et al that POS systems are in fact extremely simple applications.

Then why do the workers always screw something up and need to call a manager?

[Ed Anger]

I suddenly want a Happy Meal.

[garbon]

We're talking about people who do not have the option of just jumping ship or finding a new job that pays more. The minimum wage is The Pay that they will get no matter what company they go to if they stay in the same industry, ie fast food. And it may well be that the problem is them.

I guess I'm of mixed feelings here. Most of my paternal family is rather poor for American standards and while certainly their wages haven't improved much during the course of the lives - many of them have changed to better careers.  And then there are certainly plenty who were lazy / had ideas in their head that they deserved better and have fucked themselves over - particularly in the case of numerous children with different women / drugs-drink.

The point is that as a society, it is in our best interest to make life sustainable for these people at the bottom rung because it makes our society a better place to be. Historically speaking, minimum wages were a way to help them get the bare minimum necessary to survive. That's no long an option.

Isn't that welfare? Now you can mention again that people have tried to kill that, but that doesn't change the fact that such exists for that exact reason.

Something changed in the 1970s that shifted what "minimum" was supposed to do, and for whom. It worked well for, what? 30-40 years to keep these people's heads above water so long as they had a job, any job. Now, that's not the case.

I don't know what changed, or why. Nor do I know that raising minimum wage back to the same levels will have the desired affect. It just seems rather odd to completely disregard how well it worked before by saying that we can't go back, without looking at why it worked before and what's changed since.

To be honest, I can't really speak to this as I don't know enough to speak well to the minimum wage and its history. Though my gut feeling is that the bit in bold wasn't true.

[garbon]

Well sure, that's why I wouldn't stay for life at one company.

Besides, if I was working a minimum wage job and never managed to get to a position or job where I could make more than minimum wage, I'd fear that the problem was me.

That's fine, but we're not talking about you, in particular.

Then garbon does not understand the question, and won't respond to it.

I won't do more than that though - as I'm being polite.

[garbon]

That was the entire point. Garbon claimed that minimum wage jobs today are easier, mentally, than they were before. I disagree. I've explained why I disagree.

I'd say though that more people are computer literate so I think you are overstating that claim. Perhaps it is a wash but I'm rather unconvinced giving that I've had young cashiers fall apart when the computer systems are down. Suddenly handed back cash becomes a huge ordeal.

Also, I wonder does that chart account for how minimum wage positions added to productivity or just on the whole? It could be that some of that productivity came at the expense of making some minimum wage jobs obsolete. Not sure though.

[merithyn]

I guess I'm of mixed feelings here. Most of my paternal family is rather poor for American standards and while certainly their wages haven't improved much during the course of the lives - many of them have changed to better careers.  And then there are certainly plenty who were lazy / had ideas in their head that they deserved better and have fucked themselves over - particularly in the case of numerous children with different women / drugs-drink.

The whys and wherefores aren't my concern. There will be those who are poor because they choose a particular way of life, and those who are poor because it's all they know, and a whole lot of people who are poor because of the circumstances that they're in. I don't really care much why. What I care about is that we, as a society, make sure that each of them has the bare minimum to survive, because we're wealthy enough to do so, and it's the right thing to do.

Isn't that welfare? Now you can mention again that people have tried to kill that, but that doesn't change the fact that such exists for that exact reason.

It is now, yes. It didn't used to be. The question is: Are we willing to maintain the status quo of using welfare to fill the gaps that businesses aren't doing? Or did what we have before work better?

I don't have an answer on which is better or worse. I don't have enough information to make an informed opinion. But I do think that those are the questions we need to be asking before we decide yay or nay to raising the minimum wage.

To be honest, I can't really speak to this as I don't know enough to speak well to the minimum wage and its history. Though my gut feeling is that the bit in bold wasn't true.

I don't know, either. It's possible that it wasn't. It's possible that it was. I know that my family was dirt poor growing up, and we still didn't qualify for any support because my mom had a job. (At the time, any job meant no welfare.) She made minimum wage as an LPN, and managed to put a roof over our heads, feed us (most of the time), and give us clothes. Today, she wouldn't have been able to do that, but she would have had more access to welfare.

Maybe it's a wash and there isn't one that's better than the other for the poor, at which point, it's worth looking at which is better for society as a whole, ie businesses, lower-income folks who make more than minimum wage but not by much, etc.

Mostly, I have a lot of questions because I don't think that any of this has a simple fix, ie raising the minimum wage. I don't know that it will help, but I don't know that it will hurt. Something has to give, though.

[crazy canuck]

I suddenly want a Happy Meal.

You must be depressed.

[merithyn]

I'd say though that more people are computer literate so I think you are overstating that claim. Perhaps it is a wash but I'm rather unconvinced giving that I've had young cashiers fall apart when the computer systems are down. Suddenly handed back cash becomes a huge ordeal.

Also, I wonder does that chart account for how minimum wage positions added to productivity or just on the whole? It could be that some of that productivity came at the expense of making some minimum wage jobs obsolete. Not sure though.

Yeah, I'd wondered that, too. Maybe not obsolete, but possibly shipped overseas? That chart doesn't give a whole of real information.

[Ed Anger]

I suddenly want a Happy Meal.

You must be depressed.

[The Brain]

I must break you.

[mongers]

.....
Besides, if I was working a minimum wage job and never managed to get to a position or job where I could make more than minimum wage, I'd fear that the problem was me.

......

The point is that as a society, it is in our best interest to make life sustainable for these people at the bottom rung because it makes our society a better place to be. Historically speaking, minimum wages were a way to help them get the bare minimum necessary to survive. That's no long an option. Something changed in the 1970s that shifted what "minimum" was supposed to do, and for whom. It worked well for, what? 30-40 years to keep these people's heads above water so long as they had a job, any job. Now, that's not the case.
.....

I think this is the wider and more important point.

[Ideologue]

This is part where I tell everybody to read Milton Friedman, and no one does.

He's one of those actual economists Berkut wanted to know about.