McDonalds: "What, my peon, you don't work two full time jobs?"

[The Brain]

I was raised to be a cashier, a great cashier.

[Razgovory]

I'm not sure I agree that minimum wage should increase with increase productivity. I mean isn't part of that because many tasks have been getting easier to do?

You shouldn't get paid more because you produce more?

No, not strictly. I mean I'm coming at this from someone on salary and producing more doesn't change my pay - apart from if I've produced enough of higher quality that then gets me a raise/promotion.

Sounds like s disincentive to being more productive.

Agreed when they are stingy on the wage front. Not agreed that just because the company makes more that I should automatically make more.  Then you would have to happily accept that if the company makes less or sees slow growth (which many end up doing at times) then my wages should follow that too - even though I'm kicking ass.

I wonder how much productivity has been pushed by fear.  Employers threatening their employees that if they don't "do less with more", they'll be out of a job.

I'm not quite sure what you mean as I'm not sure what the doing less bit is hear. I thought we were saying employees were doing more?

I got that last part backwards.  Do more with less.

[merithyn]

I don't know. I mean if you were a cashier (let's say) and you were bad at math, did a computer make that more difficult?

Yes. One doesn't have to be good at math to be good at giving change back. That's what counting back change is for; so you don't have to do math.

[garbon]

I'm not sure I agree that minimum wage should increase with increase productivity. I mean isn't part of that because many tasks have been getting easier to do?

You shouldn't get paid more because you produce more?

No, not strictly. I mean I'm coming at this from someone on salary and producing more doesn't change my pay - apart from if I've produced enough of higher quality that then gets me a raise/promotion.

Sounds like s disincentive to being more productive.

Agreed when they are stingy on the wage front. Not agreed that just because the company makes more that I should automatically make more.  Then you would have to happily accept that if the company makes less or sees slow growth (which many end up doing at times) then my wages should follow that too - even though I'm kicking ass.

I wonder how much productivity has been pushed by fear.  Employers threatening their employees that if they don't "do less with more", they'll be out of a job.

I'm not quite sure what you mean as I'm not sure what the doing less bit is hear. I thought we were saying employees were doing more?

I got that last part backwards.  Do more with less.

Ah, maybe. My first boss tried to pull that one on me when I was working 90-100 hour weeks but being compensated for 40-50. I was young and naive.

[garbon]

I don't know. I mean if you were a cashier (let's say) and you were bad at math, did a computer make that more difficult?

Yes. One doesn't have to be good at math to be good at giving change back. That's what counting back change is for; so you don't have to do math.

I didn't realize counting wasn't a part of math... So how did the computer make it more difficult when it tells them exactly what to give back?

[grumbler]

I wondered if that's what you meant. It can be argued that computers have actually made jobs that were done by manual laborers much more difficult. They now require rudimentary computer knowledge, a minimum of reading skills, etc.

When this happens, jobs move from being minimum-wage jobs to being more-than-minimum-wage jobs, because employers have to be more picky and are willing to pay a premium for retention.

I suspect that this is seldom the case, however, in the fast-food business, where computers are designed to be operated by people with minimal English language skills.

[merithyn]

Well sure, that's why I wouldn't stay for life at one company.

Besides, if I was working a minimum wage job and never managed to get to a position or job where I could make more than minimum wage, I'd fear that the problem was me.

That's fine, but we're not talking about you, in particular. We're talking about people who do not have the option of just jumping ship or finding a new job that pays more. The minimum wage is The Pay that they will get no matter what company they go to if they stay in the same industry, ie fast food. And it may well be that the problem is them.

The point is that as a society, it is in our best interest to make life sustainable for these people at the bottom rung because it makes our society a better place to be. Historically speaking, minimum wages were a way to help them get the bare minimum necessary to survive. That's no long an option. Something changed in the 1970s that shifted what "minimum" was supposed to do, and for whom. It worked well for, what? 30-40 years to keep these people's heads above water so long as they had a job, any job. Now, that's not the case.

I don't know what changed, or why. Nor do I know that raising minimum wage back to the same levels will have the desired affect. It just seems rather odd to completely disregard how well it worked before by saying that we can't go back, without looking at why it worked before and what's changed since.

[merithyn]

I didn't realize counting wasn't a part of math... So how did the computer make it more difficult when it tells them exactly what to give back?

You have to learn how the computer works. A register isn't just a big calculator.

[HVC]

Perhaps if I worked at a small co or a startup. I don't expect anything like that working in a corporation. Besides if the increase was due to them investing in infrastructure (better, faster computers, networks, etc.) why would they want to pay me more?

We're not talking over a year or two, here. We're talking about a trend that's gone back 50 years. If your company was seeing a regular increase in production - and it generally follows that includes more money in their coffers - but you received no raise at all over that time, it would probably be a problem for you.

but those increases are due to capital investments, not more efficient works. So companies are already paying more for increased production in that they're buying better machines.

[merithyn]

When this happens, jobs move from being minimum-wage jobs to being more-than-minimum-wage jobs, because employers have to be more picky and are willing to pay a premium for retention.

I suspect that this is seldom the case, however, in the fast-food business, where computers are designed to be operated by people with minimal English language skills.

The register that I worked on at Hardee's in college was not a simple tool. It took quite a bit of time to learn how to work it, what to do if you made a mistake, how to make changes to menu items, etc. They may be designed to be more simple than the software that I use today, but they are not simple tools.

[garbon]

I didn't realize counting wasn't a part of math... So how did the computer make it more difficult when it tells them exactly what to give back?

You have to learn how to computer works. A register isn't just a big calculator.

I'm going to differ to what grumbler said. I don't think those ones are super complex to learn because if they were, no one would be taking those crummy McJobs and/or they would have to increase pay to get people who could handle it.

[merithyn]

I'm going to differ to what grumbler said. I don't think those ones are super complex to learn because if they were, no one would be taking those crummy McJobs and/or they would have to increase pay to get people who could handle it.

They're more complex than the simple ring-up registers of the 1960s and 1970s. That was my point.

[grumbler]

The register that I worked on at Hardee's in college was not a simple tool. It took quite a bit of time to learn how to work it, what to do if you made a mistake, how to make changes to menu items, etc. They may be designed to be more simple than the software that I use today, but they are not simple tools.

The register I see when I go into a fast food place is quite a simple machine, with just pictures on it for the food choices, and an automatic change dispenser.  It is possible that such a thing wasn't possible back when you were in college, but then cashiers haven't always been minimum-wage workers, either.

[Ideologue]

Well sure, that's why I wouldn't stay for life at one company.

Besides, if I was working a minimum wage job and never managed to get to a position or job where I could make more than minimum wage, I'd fear that the problem was me.

That's fine, but we're not talking about you, in particular.

Then garbon does not understand the question, and won't respond to it.

[Ideologue]

Though I'll point out to Meri et al that POS systems are in fact extremely simple applications.