Orson Scott Card, Anti-Gay Author, Responds To 'Ender's Game' Boycott Campaign

[Siege]

Where in the bible/torah does it actually say being gay is forbidden?
Most of the supposed instances of it being said that I've ever seen can be interpreted quite differently.

Scroll down to 18:22 and on the second link to 20:13

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0318.htm

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0320.htm

18:22  "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination. "

20:13 "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

[Grey Fox]

Great now, we're quoting random books from the past.

[Siege]

You have to keep in mind jewish law is only applicable to jews.
It would be violation of the Torah to ask non-jew to obey the Torah. Unless he converts, of course.

Gentiles do not suffer anywhere near as the jewish people have done historically when abandon the Torah. (Babylonian exile, expulsion from Spain, WW2 holocaust, etc)

However, G-d does judge all the nations, and the ones that sin the less are the most successful nations. I.e protestants better than catholics because of no images, etc.
Relationship with Israel is also important. See the Soviet Empire.

[Razgovory]

There is a New Testament prohibition against homosexuality, but it's near the back so most people don't find it.  Leviticus is much closer to the front so it gets quoted more.

[Josquius]

Where in the bible/torah does it actually say being gay is forbidden?
Most of the supposed instances of it being said that I've ever seen can be interpreted quite differently.

Scroll down to 18:22 and on the second link to 20:13

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0318.htm

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0320.htm

18:22  "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination. "

20:13 "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Lying with a man in the same way you would a woman does sound like it would be an abomination. Luckily our bodies don't work that way, its not possible.

[Razgovory]

Really? you are physically unable to lie down next to a women?

[DontSayBanana]

Gentiles do not suffer anywhere near as the jewish people have done historically when abandon the Torah. (Babylonian exile, expulsion from Spain, WW2 holocaust, etc)

However, G-d does judge all the nations, and the ones that sin the less are the most successful nations. I.e protestants better than catholics because of no images, etc.
Relationship with Israel is also important. See the Soviet Empire.

Expulsion from Spain?  How about the Spanish Inquisition?  The Irish Potato Famine?  Centuries of blacks in slavery?

Talk about a selective memory, dude.

[garbon]

I hesitate to bring this up because I can only imagine the bashing I'm going to get for it. Nonetheless, in the order of full disclosure, here goes.

My position on gay marriage:

Gay marriage rights has been equated with the social movement in the 1960s for racial equality. When I look at history, it is clear to me that G-d has raised the nations that sought ending slavery, while the nations that tried to perpetuate slavery became poorer and eventually fell behind. 19th century slavery was nothing like the highly regulated slavery of ancient Israel. Then came the fight for equality, and once again, nations that sought equality and oppoussed racism became rich countries, while the extremely catholic and racist countries became poorer.

The diference is, being black or African is not a sin according to the Torah. Being gay is.

I really don't care what homosexuals do in their privacy. Its their lives. The problem is the institutionalization of gay marriage, and its impact on society at large. Sodom wasn't destroyed because it had gay people, it was destroyed because homosexuality became an institution, accepted by the society at large, and eventually dominant social behavior.

I don't think this is going to end well. I think the West will lose its economical and technological hegemony, and other nations, which G-d finds less sinful, will become the next dominant powers.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/omgitsanf/19-things-the-bible-forbids-other-than-homosexuali-b83k

[garbon]

Oh I wanted to add here, belatedly, to Otto - clearly Card has some skin in the game if he's trying to make sure people go and see the movie based on his book.

[Razgovory]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/omgitsanf/19-things-the-bible-forbids-other-than-homosexuali-b83k


Wow, that's brilliant garbon.  Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

[Razgovory]

Gentiles do not suffer anywhere near as the jewish people have done historically when abandon the Torah. (Babylonian exile, expulsion from Spain, WW2 holocaust, etc)

However, G-d does judge all the nations, and the ones that sin the less are the most successful nations. I.e protestants better than catholics because of no images, etc.
Relationship with Israel is also important. See the Soviet Empire.

Expulsion from Spain?  How about the Spanish Inquisition?  The Irish Potato Famine?  Centuries of blacks in slavery?

Talk about a selective memory, dude.

EDIT: Dammit. 

The Spanish inquisition killed like what?  3,000 people over 300 years? 

[Camerus]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/omgitsanf/19-things-the-bible-forbids-other-than-homosexuali-b83k


Wow, that's brilliant garbon.  Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

It has little relevance for non-Jewish America anyway.

Re:  gay marriage, I am for it.  But I can't fault some people like Siege for wondering what its impact will be on society, given that its never really happened before in human history (though personally I don't imagine it will be terribly large).

[Siege]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/omgitsanf/19-things-the-bible-forbids-other-than-homosexuali-b83k


Wow, that's brilliant garbon.  Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

It has little relevance for non-Jewish America anyway.

What are you talking about. There nothing jewish in there. That's clearly directed at Christians.
Fuck. Now I have to go back and break it down one by one. Fuck you Raz. Fuck you Pathos.


1- "1. First off, we are doing a TERRIBLE job when it comes to dietary restrictions."
- Please. We keep them all.

2- "2. Time to cut out the shellfish."
- Read above

3- "3. Hopefully nobody's EATING YOUR PETS."
- Blahblabla


4. Or eating... weird-ass animals.



5. America is gonna have trouble with the no-fat rule, though.
- This is where they start to mislead. This refers to the not eating the internal fat in the organs of animals. The natural fat that you find in the beef have a diferent name in Hebrew. Of course plenty of hareidim do read it as the fat in the meat though.


6. Eating blood. BLOOD.
- Yep. Who the hell drinks or eat blood anyway? Oh, I forgot you guys eat some kind hot dog looking thing made of blood...


7. Oh, and there's like, 100 birds we shouldn't chow down on, either.
- Yes, we know.



8. Secondly, our fashion is one huge blasphemous abomination to God.
Leviticus 10:6 "Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people."
Translation: Torn clothes are a no-no. Sorry, every single person who owns a pair of ripped-knees jeans.

- I laughed at this one for a while. Let me try to explain. This one was taken completely out of context. What happen is, the two older sons of Aaron, Moshe's brother, went to the tabernacle (sp) when in Sinai, and offered fire out of the normal kohen ritual. So they got whacked with fire, and Moshe told Aaron to not (what's the word in English?) feel sorry that his two elder sons had died, because they had died because of their sins. The custom was, and is to this day, to rend/cut your clothes when you were (that English word again?) feeling sad because you lost a family member, and Moshe told Aaron to not do it. That is all. This is by no means a PERMANENT command to not cut your jeans.



9. Thought you were gonna wear your leather jacket over that cotton V-neck? Think again, sinner.
Leviticus 19:19 "Neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee."

- Yes, don't wear shit with mixed shit.



10. After fashion comes personal appearance. Supercuts is about to go straight outta business.
Leviticus 19:27 "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads."  Translation: Long hair, don't care!

- WTF. Round cuts are like what Christian monks did during mediaval times. This is most definitively not a command to not cut your hair. By the way, one of the reasons the haredim wear the long locks is to not have a rounded haircut.



11. And I hope you ladies like a man with some scruff!
Leviticus 19:27 "Neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."
Translation: "5 o'clock shadow" just became "lifetime shadow."

- Wrong again. The command is to not do stupid shit to the CORNERS of your beard like assyrians and most other people in the area did at the time. If the command was to not shave, it would have said so clearly, since Egyptians did shave, so the custom was not unknown. BTW, jews that do not shave do this using a diferent law, the one that says to not follow the traditions of other peoples, since shaving is clearly a non-Jewish tradition or fashion.



12. Tattoos? Forget about it.
Leviticus 19:28 "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord."
Translation: Get your street cred some other way.

- Yeah. No tattoos. However this is not the law for no tattoos. This one is for people who are (was that English word again?) feeling sad because they lost a loved one, to not do like most people at the time did, cutting their flesh, marking themselves, and shaving their eyebrows.



13. Some things seem rather harmless, like having a mixed garden.
Leviticus 19:19 "Thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed."
Translation: Everything is a sin nowadays.

- Yeah. We don't mixed seed in the fields. I don't see how this one is controversial.



14. Or Bichon-Yorkies.
Leviticus 19:19 "Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind."
Translation: No mixing up animals! Or maybe it's just cows. What would you breed a cow with anyway? WHY CAN'T THE BIBLE JUST BE LESS CRYPTIC?


- This dude is retarded. CATTLE.
There is another one that prohibit mixing of animals more generally. Still, it does not cover mixing dogs. Mixing diferent types of dogs is not prohibited by this, since they are all still dogs. Now mixing a horse and a donkey to get a mule is a no go. BTW, so is cutting the balls of the oxes.



15. Other things are sorta bad, I guess. Like revenge.
Leviticus 19:18 "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people."
Translation: We all need to be the bigger person. But sometimes it's so harddd!

- Yeah. No revenge against your people. Foreign enemies are game though.



16. There's a bunch of things we're not supposed to touch.
There's a bunch of things we're not supposed to touch.


Leviticus 5:2 "If a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty."
Translation: Your bet is as good as mine as to what warrants an "unclean beast." But I'm guessing your puppy isn't exactly a clean freak.

- This dude is retard. unclean beast is non-kosher animal, animal that cannot be eaten.



17. Some really confuse me. You mean, less church is better?
Leviticus 12:4–5 "And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days."

Translation: Hey, new moms: STAY OUT OF CHURCH. Thirty-three days for bubbly baby boys; 66 days for glowing baby girls.


- Church? This is about the Temple, of which there was only ONE in Israel, and people went there to offer sacrifices, not to seat inside and hear people talk.



18. Like, they really confuse me: No alcohol in church. What?!
19 Things The Bible Forbids Other Than Homosexuality


Leviticus 10:9 "Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die."

Translation: The bazillion people drinking wine as the blood of Christ in church are soooo over this rule.


- Again.



19. Last but not least: Working on Sundays. The whole NFL is screwed!
Leviticus 23:3 "Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings."

Translation: Tebow is done for.


- Please. The Shabbat is on Saturday, not sunday.



Now, you guys realize of all the misleading in all this, right?
Lets look at the first one.
No eating pork.
Yes, it is a command, if you do not keep kosher you cannot communicate with G-d.
However, if you eat pork, the penalty is to wash the clothes you are wearing, wash your entire body, before sundown.

Compare this to gay sex, in which the penalty is death.

Clearly this guy is comparing apples to oranges.
Also, if you cannot keep a couple laws, that is not reason to not keep all the ones that you can.
I cannot sacrify at the Temple, because there is not Temple. That doesn't mean I cannot keep a kosher diet.

More importantly, nobody gives a flying fuck about gay sex.
What they do in their privacy is their problem. If I do not witness it, I have nothing to say.
Gay marriage, however, is a public matter.

[Razgovory]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/omgitsanf/19-things-the-bible-forbids-other-than-homosexuali-b83k


Wow, that's brilliant garbon.  Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

It has little relevance for non-Jewish America anyway.

What are you talking about. There nothing jewish in there. That's clearly directed at Christians.
Fuck. Now I have to go back and break it down one by one. Fuck you Raz. Fuck you Pathos.

What did I do now?

[Razgovory]

Oh, I figured it out.  That was sarcasm you git.  I was disappointed in garbon in bringing that sophomoric bullshit to our attention.

Oh and the English word you were looking for was "Mourning".