Orson Scott Card, Anti-Gay Author, Responds To 'Ender's Game' Boycott Campaign

[Siege]

I hesitate to bring this up because I can only imagine the bashing I'm going to get for it. Nonetheless, in the order of full disclosure, here goes.

My position on gay marriage:

Gay marriage rights has been equated with the social movement in the 1960s for racial equality. When I look at history, it is clear to me that G-d has raised the nations that sought ending slavery, while the nations that tried to perpetuate slavery became poorer and eventually fell behind. 19th century slavery was nothing like the highly regulated slavery of ancient Israel. Then came the fight for equality, and once again, nations that sought equality and oppoussed racism became rich countries, while the extremely catholic and racist countries became poorer.

The diference is, being black or African is not a sin according to the Torah. Being gay is.

I really don't care what homosexuals do in their privacy. Its their lives. The problem is the institutionalization of gay marriage, and its impact on society at large. Sodom wasn't destroyed because it had gay people, it was destroyed because homosexuality became an institution, accepted by the society at large, and eventually dominant social behavior.

I don't think this is going to end well. I think the West will lose its economical and technological hegemony, and other nations, which G-d finds less sinful, will become the next dominant powers.

[merithyn]

I hesitate to bring this up because I can only imagine the bashing I'm going to get for it. Nonetheless, in the order of full disclosure, here goes.

My position on gay marriage:

Gay marriage rights has been equated with the social movement in the 1960s for racial equality. When I look at history, it is clear to me that G-d has raised the nations that sought ending slavery, while the nations that tried to perpetuate slavery became poorer and eventually fell behind. 19th century slavery was nothing like the highly regulated slavery of ancient Israel. Then came the fight for equality, and once again, nations that sought equality and oppoussed racism became rich countries, while the extremely catholic and racist countries became poorer.

The diference is, being black or African is not a sin according to the Torah. Being gay is.

I really don't care what homosexuals do in their privacy. Its their lives. The problem is the institutionalization of gay marriage, and its impact on society at large. Sodom wasn't destroyed because it had gay people, it was destroyed because homosexuality became an institution, accepted by the society at large, and eventually dominant social behavior.

I don't think this is going to end well. I think the West will lose its economical and technological hegemony, and other nations, which G-d finds less sinful, will become the next dominant powers.

There were those who argued that being black was the Mark of Cain, ie a sin.

[Siege]

There were those who argued that being black was the Mark of Cain, ie a sin.

Oh come on. You are trying to pull this by the hair.
There is no one single word in the Torah about skin color being bad or good. Moshe himself married a Cushite, meaning a black woman.

Homosexuality, however...

[Malthus]

There were those who argued that being black was the Mark of Cain, ie a sin.

Oh come on. You are trying to pull this by the hair.
There is no one single word in the Torah about skin color being bad or good. Moshe himself married a Cushite, meaning a black woman.

Homosexuality, however...

Hey, if you wanna get technical, being a lesbian is a-okay according to the OT.

For that matter, David and Jonathan were held up as role models ... David clearly swung both ways, but he is quoted in the OT as saying that gay was better than hetero. 

1 Samuel 1:26, David talking about him and Jonathan:

Your love for me was wonderful,

more wonderful than that of women

[jimmy olsen]

1 Samuel 1:26, David talking about him and Jonathan:

Your love for me was wonderful,

more wonderful than that of women

Lots of societies other than the modern west since the advent of the concept and fear of homosexuality in the late 19th century have emphasized emotionally deep same sex friendships.

The vast majority of these would have been platonic, yet such a sentiment as that would not be unusual between the closest of friends, especially in more sexist/patriarchal societies.

[Malthus]

1 Samuel 1:26, David talking about him and Jonathan:

Your love for me was wonderful,

more wonderful than that of women

Lots of societies other than the modern west since the advent of the concept and fear of homosexuality in the late 19th century have emphasized emotionally deep same sex friendships.

The vast majority of these would have been platonic, yet such a sentiment as that would not be unusual between the closest of friends, especially in more sexist/patriarchal societies.

Yes, relations between young warrior-aristocrats were often very close.

For example, among the ancient Greeks.

Whether they were platonic ... well, let's just say, what happens in the royal barracks stays in the royal barracks. 

In the OT, David gives Jonathan his clothes, and they sleep under a single blanket ... and Jonathan's dad, worried at their relationship, attempts to have David killed. 

[Eddie Teach]

In the OT, David gives Jonathan his clothes, and they sleep under a single blanket ...

Definitely gay, like Spellus and his friend Ishmael.

[jimmy olsen]

Lots of societies other than the modern west since the advent of the concept and fear of homosexuality in the late 19th century have emphasized emotionally deep same sex friendships.

The vast majority of these would have been platonic, yet such a sentiment as that would not be unusual between the closest of friends, especially in more sexist/patriarchal societies.

Yes, relations between young warrior-aristocrats were often very close.

For example, among the ancient Greeks.

Whether they were platonic ... well, let's just say, what happens in the royal barracks stays in the royal barracks. 

Cherry picking one culture which was famous for what we consider homosexuality does not invalidate the general point I made.

What we would consider a straight man could easily make a similar statement in early Victorian Britain or modern Korea and nobody would think it strange.

[Siege]

The problem is not the personal lives of gay people.
It is the institution of gay marriage.

Regardless, there is nothing to be done. We cannot stop this train. Therefore, the West will lose to less sinful enemies.

[Savonarola]

There were those who argued that being black was the Mark of Cain, ie a sin.

The Mark of Cain is most likely intended to be some sort of tattoo; but no matter what it was it's not in itself a sin.  Killing Abel was Cain's sin, not being marked.

[Savonarola]

Hey, if you wanna get technical, being a lesbian is a-okay according to the OT.

For that matter, David and Jonathan were held up as role models ... David clearly swung both ways, but he is quoted in the OT as saying that gay was better than hetero. 

1 Samuel 1:26, David talking about him and Jonathan:

Your love for me was wonderful,

more wonderful than that of women

David was hardly a role model when it comes to following the Torah. 

[Razgovory]

There were those who argued that being black was the Mark of Cain, ie a sin.

There were those who argued that Jesus was a space alien.  What's your point?

[Josquius]

Where in the bible/torah does it actually say being gay is forbidden?
Most of the supposed instances of it being said that I've ever seen can be interpreted quite differently.

But of course, using a 2000+ year old book written by a bunch of desert nomads as a guide for how to live today= 

[Razgovory]

Greeks weren't desert nomads.

[Eddie Teach]

Where in the bible/torah does it actually say being gay is forbidden?
Most of the supposed instances of it being said that I've ever seen can be interpreted quite differently.

Being gay isn't forbidden, having gay sex is.