Arab Spring, Round 2

[Admiral Yi]

I think that's wrong on Egypt and wrong on Turkey. The economic problem in Egypt is enormous.

Which is not the same thing as saying the protests that toppled Mubarak were only, or even primarily, about jobs and incomes.

And in Turkey's case it's very, very hard to make the case that the protests have anything at all to do with jobs and incomes.

[Razgovory]

I think that's wrong on Egypt and wrong on Turkey. The economic problem in Egypt is enormous.

Which is not the same thing as saying the protests that toppled Mubarak were only, or even primarily, about jobs and incomes.

And in Turkey's case it's very, very hard to make the case that the protests have anything at all to do with jobs and incomes.

In Turkey's case they were protesting the growing power of corporations and the like.

[Sheilbh]

Which is not the same thing as saying the protests that toppled Mubarak were only, or even primarily, about jobs and incomes.

No, but you could make the same point about the French revolution. That doesn't make the economic situation less important.

And in Turkey's case it's very, very hard to make the case that the protests have anything at all to do with jobs and incomes.

Of course not, that'd be as much a mischaracterisation as yours

[Admiral Yi]

No, but you could make the same point about the French revolution. That doesn't make the economic situation less important.

?

I disagree with Cecil that the protests have been about economic malaise.

You say I'm wrong.

I repeat myself, and you say I'm right.

Raz:  Where did you get that from?

[Razgovory]

From the stuff the protesters put out themselves.  http://www.dailydot.com/news/occupy-gezi-turkish-protest-taksim-demands/

Occupy Gezi Demands by Taksim Dayanismasi [Taksim Solidarity]
TO THE PEOPLE AND THE GOVERNMENT!
1. Gezi Park will be preserved as it is. It will not be exposed to any further works under the name of a barracks, mall, residential area, or museum, etc

2. Unarmed and non-violent citizens who are congregating to exercise their constitutional rights will not be exposed to police violence. Those arrested for exercising these rights will be set free. All political, bureaucratic or public staff who have given the order to attack demonstrators exercising their right to assembly, those directing the attacks, and those individuals applying the violence, should be prosecuted in line with relevant legislation.

3. The main aim of the government's privatisation and environmental policies is to monitor public profit. So that they may benefit the citizens of Turkey equally, the transfer, sale and renting out of public spaces, beaches, waters, forests, streams, parks and urban symbols to private companies, large holdings and investors will end.

4. Democracy does not consist only of going to the ballot box to cast a vote. Democracy guarantees the state itself as every group among the people expresses its needs and complaints without experiencing fear, arrest or torture. This resistance is a struggle for freedom of expression and freedom of thought. Those who want to save the park today have received the same treatment as those who advocated the headscarf yesterday. The Gezi Park resistance refuses every type of oppression.

5. We have seen the television channels, newspapers and news websites whose professional duty is to protect the public good and relay correct information have neglected for days this country's citizens, youth and elderly who have been coming to Taksim's Gezi Park to exercise their constitutional rights in a peaceful manner. For the media to have announced our resistance to the people on its fourth day is to disregard their professional duty. In this we call on the media—and especially the media patrons who owe their wealth to the people—to act in an ethical and professional way.

[Admiral Yi]

That's not a statement of opposition to large corporations and the like.  That's a statement of opposition to the sale or lease of public lands to anyone and the like.

[Razgovory]

That's not a statement of opposition to large corporations and the like.  That's a statement of opposition to the sale or lease of public lands to anyone and the like.

Anyone who is private company or investor.  There is a bunch of other anti-corporate stuff.   What did you think it was about?

[Admiral Yi]

Anyone who is private company or investor.  There is a bunch of other anti-corporate stuff.   What did you think it was about?

I thought it was about the sale or lease of public lands to anyone and the like.

What other anti-corporate stuff is there?

There's a difference between being anti corporate in the Michael Moore/Bernie Saunders mold and objecting to certain practices, which may or may not be engaged in by incorporated entities.

[Razgovory]

Anyone who is private company or investor.  There is a bunch of other anti-corporate stuff.   What did you think it was about?

I thought it was about the sale or lease of public lands to anyone and the like.

What other anti-corporate stuff is there?

There's a difference between being anti corporate in the Michael Moore/Bernie Saunders mold and objecting to certain practices, which may or may not be engaged in by incorporated entities.

Che Guevera posters were a hint.

[Admiral Yi]

Che Guevera posters were a hint.

When you say "they" (the protesters) are anti-corporate, do you mean at least one is, a majority is, a signficant minority is, or what?

If there's one pattern to your argumentation I would change if given God-like powers, it would be this tendency to generalize from anecdotal data points.  I.e. one Republican in Oklahoma says Muslims should be expelled from the US, you report it as "Republicans want to expel Muslims citizens." (This is a hypothetical Raz.)

It's a relatively effective tactic when trading bumper sticker political slogans, when the objective is to defame your opponent and accuracy is a secondary consideration, but it's not helpful in the context of an open exchange of viewpoints of people trying to come to an understanding of a question like what do these protesters actually want.

Man I'm going nuts these days with the complex sentence structures.

[Kleves]

Sounds like the Egyptian military might step in soon.

CAIRO - Egypt's military on Monday gave the country's political parties an ultimatum to hold a meeting within 48 hours after 16 people were killed during mass protests against the government of President Mohammed Morsi.

In a statement read on state television, General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi called the demonstrations against Morsi an "unprecedented" expression of the popular will.

And he said that if the people's demands were not met within its deadline the Armed Forces would develop a road map to resolve the crisis and oversee the plan's implementation.

"If the demands of the people are not realized within the defined period, it will be incumbent upon (the armed forces)... to announce a road map for the future," said the statement by chief-of-staff General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi. It was followed by patriotic music.

Al-Sisi stressed that the military would remain neutral in politics and maintain its role as protector of the people and the nation's borders.

The statement said the military will "not be a party in politics or rule." But it said the armed forces had a responsibility to act because Egypt's national security was facing a "grave danger."

A source at Egypt's presidential palace said Morsi's office was not told in advance that the 48-hour ultimatum would be issued.

In Cairo's Tahrir Square, the crowd began to chant that the army and the people were one after al-Sisi spoke.

As al-Sisi spoke, President Barack Obama urged all sides to refrain from violence shortly after he arrived in Tanzania.

Early Monday anti-government protesters ransacked the headquarters of Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo.

That followed a day of violence that left at least 16 people dead and more than 700 injured in protests throughout the country.

The attack on the Brotherhood building was bloodiest incident of the weekend's huge and mostly peaceful protests against Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood.

It began after dark Sunday and continued for hours, with guards inside the suburban Cairo building firing on youths hurling fire bombs and rocks. Reuters cited medical and security sources as saying that eight people were killed but the figure could not be independently confirmed by NBC News.

Protesters breached  the Cairo compound's defenses and stormed the building. Crowds later carried off furniture, files, rugs, air conditioning units and portraits of Morsi, according to an Associated Press journalist. One protester emerged with a pistol and handed it over to a policeman outside. 

Footage on local television showed broken windows, blackened walls and smoke coming out of the building. A fire was still raging on one floor hours after the building was invaded. One protester tore down the Muslim Brotherhood sign from the building's front wall, while another hoisted Egypt's red, black and white flag out an upper-story window and waved it in the air in triumph.

The images were reminiscent of the destruction of the state security headquarters when Hosni Mubarak was toppled in 2011.

A spokesman for the Brotherhood said it would be demanding answers from security officials who failed to protect it.  He said two of those inside were injured  before a security detail from the movement was able to evacuate all those inside the compound in mid-morning.

Organizers behind Sunday's protests -- who managed to get 22 million signatures calling on Morsi to step down --  said they would give him until Tuesday at 5 p.m. (11 a.m. ET) to meet their demands otherwise they would call for nationwide strikes.

Protesters also demanded early elections, but late on Sunday night word from the presidential palace was that Morsi had no intentions of calling them.

Some anti-Morsi protesters spent Sunday night in dozens of tents pitched in the capital's central Tahrir Square and in front of the president's Ittihadiya Palace. They have vowed to stay there until Morsi resigns. Morsi supporters, meanwhile, went on with their sit-in in front of a major mosque in Cairo.

Sunday's protests were the largest seen in Egypt in the 2½ years of turmoil since the ouster of autocratic Mubarak in February 2011.

[Ed Anger]

A fine use of a billion dollars ever year. Might as well burn it and save everybody the trouble.

[DGuller]

Doesn't that quality as a coup? 

[Siege]

“He went to Egypt because he cared profoundly about the Middle East, and he planned to live and work there in the pursuit of peace and understanding.”

He is not the first and will not be the last person killed in the Middle East in that pursuit.

You have to be one courageous person to spend any time in Egypt these days as a foreigner.

He was a lefty and an Obamazombie, trying to prove how wrong those evil republicans are.

[Siege]

Che Guevera posters were a hint.

Republicans want to expel Muslims citizens.

Where do I sign up for this?