Exodus International Shuts Down

[crazy canuck]

Why?

Because I don't believe that homosexuality is a negative quality nor something to be "cured", anymore than blue eyes or brown eyes are. And I dislike the idea of designer children.

You are against the right of parents to choose?

I am against the "right" of a parent to genetically manipulate a child.  Most emphatically yes.

[Valmy]

I suppose theories aren't like assholes, in that I don't actually have one. I'm just skeptical of the conventional pc dogma that one's sexuality is already determined at birth.

What would you find convincing?

[Valmy]

You clearly know nothing of nature vs nurture.
As Mr.Wiggin says they're dealing with adults with fully formed personalities. Well beyond the point of nurture.
I'd say its the born this way, its in the genes, crowd that do far more to hold people back. Saying its all in the genes makes it sound like a simple problem for which an off switch can be found, as opposed to a really complicated part of a person's psyche.

Yeah you are clearly some expert here

Genes are so very very simple eh?  I was not even aware people were big on the gene bandwagon but rather is was some sort of hormonal effect.

[merithyn]

You clearly know nothing of nature vs nurture.
As Mr.Wiggin says they're dealing with adults with fully formed personalities. Well beyond the point of nurture.
I'd say its the born this way, its in the genes, crowd that do far more to hold people back. Saying its all in the genes makes it sound like a simple problem for which an off switch can be found, as opposed to a really complicated part of a person's psyche.

Yeah you are clearly some expert here

Genes are so very very simple eh?  I was not even aware people were big on the gene bandwagon but rather is was some sort of hormonal effect.

That's the most prevalent theory, yes. He's a moron.

[Josquius]

Yeah you are clearly some expert here

Genes are so very very simple eh?  I was not even aware people were big on the gene bandwagon but rather is was some sort of hormonal effect.

I'm not an expert but I know what nature vs. nurture means.

Genes aren't simple but they're far more quantifiable than psychology.

[crazy canuck]

I suppose theories aren't like assholes, in that I don't actually have one. I'm just skeptical of the conventional pc dogma that one's sexuality is already determined at birth.

What would you find convincing?

I was unaware that the current dogma was that sexuality is determined at birth.  Rather, the common view seems to be that sexual orientation is not fixed at all but has a certain amount of flexibility within a wide range of factors.

Not withstanding what Lada Gaga might entitle one of her songs

[merithyn]

I'm not an expert but I know what nature vs. nurture means.

Genes aren't simple but they're far more quantifiable than psychology.

Tyr, I'm well-versed in what nature vs nurture means. I even know how to apply it, given that I have raised four children. However, what you're talking about is absolute fucking nonsense. If being homosexual truly were how one was raised, then one would never find gay men in he-man families, and yet, one does. Being gay does not show a pattern in how people are raised, by whom, or where. What DOES show up, however, is that homosexuals are more likely to HIDE the fact that they are gay in highly Christian, anti-gay households. They may try to live as a straight person. They may marry, have children, and try to function in society as a "normal" person. That does not, however change who they are attracted to sexually.

It's an antiquated notion that how a person is raised determines whether they are gay or straight, and you're an idiot for continuing to believe it given the studies that abound that prove otherwise.

[Valmy]

I'm not an expert but I know what nature vs. nurture means.

Genes aren't simple but they're far more quantifiable than psychology.

Well clearly it is quantifiable enough to be declared impossible to change at some point.  To me that suggests a far larger nature role than psychology. 

[Valmy]

Rather, the common view seems to be that sexual orientation is not fixed at all but has a certain amount of flexibility within a wide range of factors

Do have some articles on this common view and what these factors might be?  And what exactly do we mean by a certain amount of flexibility?  "Not fixed at all" seems a bit strong considering the failure of the anti-gay treatments.

[merithyn]

I was unaware that the current dogma was that sexuality is determined at birth.  Rather, the common view seems to be that sexual orientation is not fixed at all but has a certain amount of flexibility within a wide range of factors.

Not withstanding what Lada Gaga might entitle one of her songs

That's my understanding as well. It's by no means binary (or trinary if you include bisexuals) but rather a spectrum of attractions. From what I understand, however, that spectrum is believed to be a result of the level of a number of hormones in utero prior to birth. There are some studies indicating that hormones post-birth through the first couple of years of life may also play a factor.

So far as I'm aware, however, there are no studies by legitiment scholars that show how one is raised affects one's sexuality.

[Josquius]

I'm not an expert but I know what nature vs. nurture means.

Genes aren't simple but they're far more quantifiable than psychology.

Tyr, I'm well-versed in what nature vs nurture means. I even know how to apply it, given that I have raised four children. However, what you're talking about is absolute fucking nonsense. If being homosexual truly were how one was raised, then one would never find gay men in he-man families, and yet, one does. Being gay does not show a pattern in how people are raised, by whom, or where. What DOES show up, however, is that homosexuals are more likely to HIDE the fact that they are gay in highly Christian, anti-gay households. They may try to live as a straight person. They may marry, have children, and try to function in society as a "normal" person. That does not, however change who they are attracted to sexually.

It's an antiquated notion that how a person is raised determines whether they are gay or straight, and you're an idiot for continuing to believe it given the studies that abound that prove otherwise.

How a person is raised determines most aspects of their personality. However it is not as simple as you seem to believe.
Its not as basic as give a boy barbie dolls and he will grow up gay, its bizzare to think you belive the old Freudian notion of overbearing mothers and direct simplistic psychological development is somehow a belief someone would have. Its much more complicated than that. Minute childhood experiences and combinations of a myriad of factors in a kid's environment can have all sorts of outcomes for what sort of person they become. I really don't see people ever fully getting a grasp of that, there's just too many millions of individual events in a kid's early life and there is no way of knowing which will stick and how their combinations will direct the development of a personality.

[merithyn]

How a person is raised determines most aspects of their personality. However it is not as simple as you seem to believe.
Its not as basic as give a boy barbie dolls and he will grow up gay, its bizzare to think you belive the old Freudian notion of overbearing mothers and direct simplistic psychological development is somehow a belief someone would have. Its much more complicated than that. Minute childhood experiences and combinations of a myriad of factors in a kid's environment can have all sorts of outcomes for what sort of person they become. I really don't see people ever fully getting a grasp of that, there's just too many millions of individual events in a kid's early life and there is no way of knowing which will stick and how their combinations will direct the development of a personality.

No shit, Tyr.

Now show me a single study that proves your theory. A single one, by a reputable scientist.

[Josquius]

I was unaware that the current dogma was that sexuality is determined at birth.  Rather, the common view seems to be that sexual orientation is not fixed at all but has a certain amount of flexibility within a wide range of factors.

Not withstanding what Lada Gaga might entitle one of her songs

That's my understanding as well. It's by no means binary (or trinary if you include bisexuals) but rather a spectrum of attractions. From what I understand, however, that spectrum is believed to be a result of the level of a number of hormones in utero prior to birth. There are some studies indicating that hormones post-birth through the first couple of years of life may also play a factor.

So far as I'm aware, however, there are no studies by legitiment scholars that show how one is raised affects one's sexuality.

Wait what?
So you go off at me for suggesting nurture has a part and here you are doing the same.

Now show me a single study that proves your theory. A single one, by a reputable scientist.

I don't have a university acccount atm. Can't go do an article search for you. There are however examples out there of identical twins where one is gay and one straight. Which is pretty much all the proof you need.

[merithyn]

That's my understanding as well. It's by no means binary (or trinary if you include bisexuals) but rather a spectrum of attractions. From what I understand, however, that spectrum is believed to be a result of the level of a number of hormones in utero prior to birth. There are some studies indicating that hormones post-birth through the first couple of years of life may also play a factor.

So far as I'm aware, however, there are no studies by legitiment scholars that show how one is raised affects one's sexuality.

Wait what?
So you go off at me for suggesting nurture has a part and here you are doing the same.

Hormones aren't "nurture". They're "nature".

I don't have a university acccount atm. Can't go do an article search for you. There are however examples out there of identical twins where one is gay and one straight. Which is pretty much all the proof you need.

No, that's proof that it's not 100% genetic. It proves nothing else.

[The Brain]

If I inject someone with hormones that's nature? OK.