Sonia Sotomayor for USSC?

[alfred russel]

But then, who is saying that?

So you think College Athletics are fine then?  Ok then we have nothing to discuss further.

I do. So long as the students are real students, going through real admissions standards (and no, I won't lose sleep over a consideration of athletic ability in admissions).

[crazy canuck]

I do. So long as the students are real students, going through real admissions standards (and no, I won't lose sleep over a consideration of athletic ability in admissions).

I thought there were such standards for admission.

[Berkut]

That is looking only at athletes who make it to the NFL - what is that, maybe .001% of all college athletes?

See, this is the basic problem with your position (and Malthus) you are looking at one ridiculous extreme, and then apply that in general to a group that is a thousand times larger tahn your cherry picked examples, and concluding that the problem is systemic.

Your source fails to show what you are claiming. If you want to claim that the average NFL athlete is not exceptionally bright, so what?

I'm not talking about college athletics in general, I'm speaking primarily to high profile sports at high profile schools. Football players that go to the NFL are a small, but not insignificant, portion of that group. They also seem to be the only group that is tested after their education concludes in a way that allows us to assess their aptitude, rather than the school's abilities to bend rules to keep up eligibility.

My point is, assuming the link has accurate information, skill position NFL players, don't show any more aptitude than security guards. Considering that many of those were apparently making decent enough grades to stay eligible, doesn't that cause you to question the educational value of the "student" portion of their role? What would you think if the majority of students graduating from your degree program were similarly astute? Wouldnt' that tarnish your degree?

If the lowest scoring people who graduate from my school test rather low, that tells me that my school at the low end isn't that rigorous. So what? There are lots of schools out there, and some of them are gigantic - I do not doubt that Arizona (my school) graduates plenty of people who are not all that bright. They ahve degrees in non-technical areas, and are not all that bright.

Does it "tarnish" my degree? Not really. I didn't go to school though to get a bright and shiny degree, so that might be more important to others than it is to me. If in fact I cared about such things, I might have gone to some other school that could supply me with a degree not so irrevocably damaged by the fact that the starting tailback scored low on the Wunderlic test.

[Berkut]

No, but it is certainly the case that if you have NFL potential, then you are going to be able to find a college that will take you, so it is not at all surprising that if you only look at those athletes that make it to the NFL, they will have an overall average score lower than the body of athletes in general.

And there is the problem.

It isn't a problem though.

I bet you can find all kinds of college graduates who score low on the Wonderlic test. Is that a "problem"?

[Malthus]

More logical fallacy - the fact that your argument does not persuade and is not persuasive is not evidence that "nothing" will persuade me.

I would argue the reverse - your insistence that we extrapolate extremes into generalities while I argue that the general case is not really much an issue suggests that it is YOU who will not be convinced, regardless of the evidence.

Why you feel a need to take the argument to a personal level to begin with is rather telling, I think.

Meh, you aren't very easily moved off a point once you've adopted it, that's hardly a secret.

It's neither here nor there, I just put out some information that those actually interested in the debate might find useful. I'm not all that fussed about whatever you are alleging about my arguments here.

[grumbler]

Because they are students.  It is not a charade.  They are learning how to play their sport at a high level if nothing else (and most do graduate...).  In the United States that is a necessary step in most of the big sports leagues, particularly football.  I am totally unable to concieve why it is ok for me to pay money to see a University play with student actors but as soon as I take out my wallet to pay money to see them play baseball I am suddenly harming them and worse than hitler and them playing baseball ruins the University while them being in a play is great.

Only aboput half of the "money sport" athletes, in fact, graduate from the University, and those that do overwhelmingly graduate in degree programs designed for money-sport athletes. The last number I saw for Texas, for instance, had football playters graduating (in six years) at about half the rate of male students in general.

The idea that football players are "student-athletes" is a charade at the major programs.

[Berkut]

Meh, you aren't very easily moved off a point once you've adopted it, that's hardly a secret.

I am relatively easily moved, you just have to actually make arguments beyond ad hom to do so. However, I don't typically take a position I have not at least somewhat considered, so it is true that it isn't easy to convince me I am wrong, since I am not always a neutral observer when I actually engage in an argument.

I would argue the exact same thing is true of you, or anyone else who engages in these kinds of debates on Languish. You can convince me I am wrong, but making snide comments and personal attacks implying that your difficulty in doing so is due to my stubbornness rather than the inadequacy of your argument doesn't help.

It's neither here nor there,

Ad homs are almost never here or there. That is their nature.

I just put out some information that those actually interested in the debate might find useful.

Indeed it was useful, and interesting, at least the second article was. It didn't do much to further your claim though.

I'm not all that fussed about whatever you are alleging about my arguments here.

Of course you aren't.

[The Minsky Moment]

Berk, you mischaraterized what JR was saying.  Re-read the post he was responding to.  By that definition Paris Hilton is the perfect example of why that line of reasoning fails.

I was being sarcastic, and illustrating that his objection was simply based on his personal definition of what constitutes "worthy" culture.

And you just demonstrated by point by taking a subjectivist, majority rules view of what constitutes worthy culture.

[alfred russel]

Berkut, Valmy, and CC: I have been repeating myself for pages, and you have been repeating yourselves for the same number of pages. We are at an impasse, and you have outlasted me. I offer you my congratulations. 

[crazy canuck]

Berkut, Valmy, and CC: I have been repeating myself for pages, and you have been repeating yourselves for the same number of pages. We are at an impasse, and you have outlasted me. I offer you my congratulations. 

I actually wonder what you mean by admission standards in light of your comment that you dont mind sports skill to be factored into that.   I had thought that there were minimum admission standards for athletes to be admitted into university.  Granted they might not be as high as you would wish but am I wrong that they do exist.  It is an honest question.  I know they exist in Canada - minimum GPA requirements were brought in when I was playing but I am not sure about the US.

[alfred russel]

Berkut, Valmy, and CC: I have been repeating myself for pages, and you have been repeating yourselves for the same number of pages. We are at an impasse, and you have outlasted me. I offer you my congratulations. 

I actually wonder what you mean by admission standards in light of your comment that you dont mind sports skill to be factored into that.   I had thought that there were minimum admission standards for athletes to be admitted into university.  Granted they might not be as high as you would wish but am I wrong that they do exist.  It is an honest question.  I know they exist in Canada - minimum GPA requirements were brought in when I was playing but I am not sure about the US.

I believe they do exist, but my point of view is they are too low.

[jimmy olsen]

I've been to both a state University and an elite liberal arts college and there wasn't any difference in the classroom dynamic. A vocal minority controlled the discussion and must people didn't offer their opinion unprompted.

Doesn't it depend on class size?  In a huge class, you'd really have to be a know-it-all to participate.  However, in my experience, when the class size gets very small, with like 10 people, then everyone participates.

I'm talking midsized 300-400 level classes with 20 students.

[jimmy olsen]

My point is, assuming the link has accurate information, skill position NFL players, don't show any more aptitude than security guards. Considering that many of those were apparently making decent enough grades to stay eligible, doesn't that cause you to question the educational value of the "student" portion of their role? What would you think if the majority of students graduating from your degree program were similarly astute? Wouldnt' that tarnish your degree?

The undergraduate degree has become so devalued that I wouldn't be that surprised if that was true.

[Berkut]

Berk, you mischaraterized what JR was saying.  Re-read the post he was responding to.  By that definition Paris Hilton is the perfect example of why that line of reasoning fails.

I was being sarcastic, and illustrating that his objection was simply based on his personal definition of what constitutes "worthy" culture.

And you just demonstrated by point by taking a subjectivist, majority rules view of what constitutes worthy culture.

Not at all - I make no judgements one way or another about what other people consider worthy culture, or bother spending my time feeling superior based on what I consider to be "w

Berkut, Valmy, and CC: I have been repeating myself for pages, and you have been repeating yourselves for the same number of pages. We are at an impasse, and you have outlasted me. I offer you my congratulations. 

I actually wonder what you mean by admission standards in light of your comment that you dont mind sports skill to be factored into that.   I had thought that there were minimum admission standards for athletes to be admitted into university.  Granted they might not be as high as you would wish but am I wrong that they do exist.  It is an honest question.  I know they exist in Canada - minimum GPA requirements were brought in when I was playing but I am not sure about the US.

I believe they do exist, but my point of view is they are too low.

But this is the point - too low where?

Every university pretty much has difference standards, do blanket statements like "they are too low" make no sense - too low at Harvard? Too low at Georgia? Too low at Wichita State? Too low at Brown?

[grumbler]

I actually wonder what you mean by admission standards in light of your comment that you dont mind sports skill to be factored into that.   I had thought that there were minimum admission standards for athletes to be admitted into university.  Granted they might not be as high as you would wish but am I wrong that they do exist.  It is an honest question.  I know they exist in Canada - minimum GPA requirements were brought in when I was playing but I am not sure about the US.

See this article: http://blogsarchive.newsobserver.com/accnow/index.php?p=5191&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 to see some discussion on the point.  A lot of conferences and teams allow non-academically-qualified athletes to play.  And the minimums are set by the NCAA, not the school.  Schools can impose additional qualifications, but I don't know how many do.