Sonia Sotomayor for USSC?

[crazy canuck]

I don't assume that the path I took was superior. But I don't believe admitting people to strong academic institutions that have an 800 on the SAT (or even less) and struggled to get through high school is a good policy--I think it makes a joke of the institutions and detracts from the degree programs. Maybe you were that poorly prepared coming out of high school--I strongly doubt that simply because you have decent writing and reasoning skills and it is unlikely you learned those after 18 while coping with a college curriculum. But even if you were, you are one of a small minority.

Valmy: I really do doubt that schools like Duke are actively recruiting and admitting musicians who have a 2.5 high school GPA and 850 SAT score. I've yet to hear an interview with a member of a symphony orchestra that gave me the impression they were as stupid as some of the people we have admitted as athletes at our colleges.

You obviously dont have many chances to speak to student althletes most of whom excel at academics as well as their sport.  I assume the same is true for musicians.  Why is it that universities should not allow people to excel in more then one discipline?

[alfred russel]

You certainly assume that people with higher GPAs and SATs are superior to people who are not.  I would not like to live in the kind of world you would want where the only thing that is valued is high grades.  Some of the dumbest most incompetent people I have had to work with over the years obtained very high grades.  I would much prefer well rounded individuals who have a variety of life experiences, including sports, not somebody who just devoted all their time and energy to obtaining top marks.  There is enough bias toward marks in the entrance requirements of universities as it is.  Why do you begrudge the university experience to those who enter through other doors?

That is absolutely not what I am saying at all, but good try. I'm saying that people who are functionally illiterate should not be admitted to top tier state colleges. I'm not bringing up SAT scores to show that these people are below average, but to show that they are lack basic reading and writing skills.

[crazy canuck]

That is absolutely not what I am saying at all, but good try. I'm saying that people who are functionally illiterate should not be admitted to top tier state colleges. I'm not bringing up SAT scores to show that these people are below average, but to show that they are lack basic reading and writing skills.

Ok, we can agree that a student athlete should at least have the ability to be a student.

[garbon]

Garbon, not an elitist?

Of course not. I come from very humble stock.

[Eddie Teach]

I dunno. At what point does ethnicity matter compared to culture? Does anybody think Cardozo's grandparents spoke Spanish, for instance?

No. But then, few Americans did.

I'm not sure how their ancestors living in England for a couple hundred years a couple hundred years earlier makes them English more than the ancestors having resided in Spain for possibly millennia and leaving 400 years earlier made them Spanish. Cardozo's family was ethnically Sephardic and culturally American. Not English per se.

[Oexmelin]

A public institution can have a commitment to educating a broad swath of people and yet still aspire to provide the best quality academics as possible.  There are plenty of public universities out there that admit lots of residents and yet still have departments and programs with a strong commitment to academic excellence.  (And there are others that do not have as strong a commitment.)  Perhaps they will never be able to reach #1 in the canned rankings or even #20, but they can still aspire to reach as high as possible in terms of academic excellence.  Seems to me if an institution lacks that aspiration, it is basically saying that the people it serves don't deserve any better than a half-assed effort.

I have taught at a very public uni and a much more selective uni. The clientele is so different that you simply cannot have the same expectations, even if you are the same professor; your total effort might be the same but it goes toward very different goals and such goals are, as BB said, very rarely recognized in all the various rankings. University administrations usually know that. Add to that the very different budgets for resources (library being a chief one), much larger classes, etc., etc.

[alfred russel]

That is absolutely not what I am saying at all, but good try. I'm saying that people who are functionally illiterate should not be admitted to top tier state colleges. I'm not bringing up SAT scores to show that these people are below average, but to show that they are lack basic reading and writing skills.

Ok, we can agree that a student athlete should at least have the ability to be a student.

How widespread the extent of what I'm saying is, I don't know. I did look up georgetown, as that is the most recognized institution mentioned so far (despite the prowess of Arizona's baseball team). This article points out the Georgetown basketball team had average scores of 821, while the student body was 1275 (on a scale from 400 to 1600). Projecting the wikipedia rates, the basketball players averaged around the 17th percentile while the student body was around the 82nd.

The article does say that most players graduate, but if you guide players through a bunch of classes with group work and essay topics, is just getting a degree that hard? I can't imagine these kids contribute much to the academic classroom discussions.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/gtown/longterm/1999/thompson/archives/thomp081797.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT

[CountDeMoney]

Y en espanol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGwtJQDkjCE&NR=1

[jimmy olsen]

What's with all the youtube spam lately? 

[jimmy olsen]

The article does say that most players graduate, but if you guide players through a bunch of classes with group work and essay topics, is just getting a degree that hard? I can't imagine these kids contribute much to the academic classroom discussions.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/gtown/longterm/1999/thompson/archives/thomp081797.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT

Most kids don't contribute much to classroom discussions. At the undergraduate level, in almost every class I attended me and one or two other kids dominated the discussion and the rest seldom opened their mouth.

[MadBurgerMaker]

I'm saying that people who are functionally illiterate should not be admitted to top tier state colleges.

You leave Vince Young out of this! 

[alfred russel]

Most kids don't contribute much to classroom discussions. At the undergraduate level, in almost every class I attended me and one or two other kids dominated the discussion and the rest seldom opened their mouth.

CC, as I was saying, average to below average students, like those making up Tim's college, don't meaningfully contribute in the classroom.

[jimmy olsen]

Most kids don't contribute much to classroom discussions. At the undergraduate level, in almost every class I attended me and one or two other kids dominated the discussion and the rest seldom opened their mouth.

CC, as I was saying, average to below average students, like those making up Tim's college, don't meaningfully contribute in the classroom.

I've been to both a state University and an elite liberal arts college and there wasn't any difference in the classroom dynamic. A vocal minority controlled the discussion and must people didn't offer their opinion unprompted.

[Valmy]

Valmy: I really do doubt that schools like Duke are actively recruiting and admitting musicians who have a 2.5 high school GPA and 850 SAT score. I've yet to hear an interview with a member of a symphony orchestra that gave me the impression they were as stupid as some of the people we have admitted as athletes at our colleges.

People get into colleges all sorts of ways.  I guarantee you, nay I double dog dare you, that if you are an incredibly talented musician or actor or so forth you can get into the Fine Arts department at a University with grades and test scores that would get you rejected at other departments.

I am getting a little frustrated here.  You seem to be obsessed with this ridiculous and frankly untrue stereotype that athletes perform poorly when in fact they perform better than the average non-athlete student.

[alfred russel]

Most kids don't contribute much to classroom discussions. At the undergraduate level, in almost every class I attended me and one or two other kids dominated the discussion and the rest seldom opened their mouth.

CC, as I was saying, average to below average students, like those making up Tim's college, don't meaningfully contribute in the classroom.

I've been to both a state University and an elite liberal arts college and there wasn't any difference in the classroom dynamic. A vocal minority controlled the discussion and must people didn't offer their opinion unprompted.