Sonia Sotomayor for USSC?

[crazy canuck]

I guess my main complaint is really just cultural annoyance--it seems 90% of the time I hear of some schools it is because of their sports teams, manned by people who may never graduate.

Why does it bother you that some college athletes are so good they can begin earning millions of dollars by leaving university early and not graduating.  That is one kind of success isnt it?  Also, speaking as a father, one of the factors that influences where I send me kids to elementary and middle school is the quality of the sports programs at the school.  It will continue to be a factor when they get to high school.  I am not sure why it should not continue to be a factor on into university assuming they have the ability to play a sport at that level.

[Valmy]

A public institution can have a commitment to educating a broad swath of people and yet still aspire to provide the best quality academics as possible.  There are plenty of public universities out there that admit lots of residents and yet still have departments and programs with a strong commitment to academic excellence.  (And there are others that do not have as strong a commitment.)  Perhaps they will never be able to reach #1 in the canned rankings or even #20, but they can still aspire to reach as high as possible in terms of academic excellence.  Seems to me if an institution lacks that aspiration, it is basically saying that the people it serves don't deserve any better than a half-assed effort.

Ok yes I think every institution should aspire to provide the best education possible while keeping in mind the goals of the institution.

[garbon]

Some?  The very definition of mediocrity requires that most recognize that fact.

I suppose I should have said most but I'm not elitist like you.

[jimmy olsen]

Some?  The very definition of mediocrity requires that most recognize that fact.

I suppose I should have said most but I'm not elitist like you.

Garbon, not an elitist?

[alfred russel]

I guess my main complaint is really just cultural annoyance--it seems 90% of the time I hear of some schools it is because of their sports teams, manned by people who may never graduate.

Why does it bother you that some college athletes are so good they can begin earning millions of dollars by leaving university early and not graduating.  That is one kind of success isnt it? 

The incredibly small minority that leave early for lucrative professional contracts: I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is admission standards being lowered so that people who could never otherwise get a second look are admitted and then once admitted view academics as a hurdle to stay qualified to compete. And then those people becoming the student body's face to the general public.

It makes sense to care about athletics in elementary and high school; after all most children participate. I'm not sure why that would transfer to college.

[Savonarola]

I think we're skirting the real issue here; is Sonia Sotomayor going to get a basketball scholarship or not?

[crazy canuck]

The incredibly small minority that leave early for lucrative professional contracts: I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is admission standards being lowered so that people who could never otherwise get a second look are admitted and then once admitted view academics as a hurdle to stay qualified to compete. And then those people becoming the student body's face to the general public.

It makes sense to care about athletics in elementary and high school; after all most children participate. I'm not sure why that would transfer to college.

Again speaking from personal experience I was one of those who went to university mainly to play ball but once there I found my academic niche and thrived both academically and in sports.  I have a feeling that you put less value on searching out the best athletic experience simply because you were not part of the group that could.  I probably would not have excelled nor sought out the kind of university experience you had or pursued but that does not make your experience any less valuable.

[alfred russel]

Again speaking from personal experience I was one of those who went to university mainly to play ball but once there I found my academic niche and thrived both academically and in sports.  I have a feeling that you put less value on searching out the best athletic experience simply because you were not part of the group that could.  I probably would not have excelled nor sought out the kind of university experience you had or pursued but that does not make your experience any less valuable.

You are right--I was not able to be a college athlete, just like most people are not. If your children are able, then by all means take that into account when choosing a college.

I do however question admitting less academically qualified individuals who do not have a strong desire to pursue academics on the chance they will "find their academic niche." And in any event, I doubt your precollege prep was nearly as bad as many athletes that are entering college.

[crazy canuck]

I do however question admitting less academically qualified individuals who do not have a strong desire to pursue academics on the chance they will "find their academic niche." And in any event, I doubt your precollege prep was nearly as bad as many athletes that are entering college.

Why do you question it.  There are many paths leading to a university education.  Everyone is not like you.  Why assume that the path you took is superior?

And by the way you would be wrong about my pre-college prep.  I also attended high school with the primary purpose of playing ball.  If not for that I would probably have dropped out and started working in one of the mills like many of my friends at the time.

[Valmy]

I do however question admitting less academically qualified individuals who do not have a strong desire to pursue academics on the chance they will "find their academic niche." And in any event, I doubt your precollege prep was nearly as bad as many athletes that are entering college.

But athletics is a department in the University, why shouldn't they be able to bring in students who are qualified for their programs.  If there was an artist or musician who was a genius but was not academically strong I still think they should go to a top art school so why wouldn't that also apply to an athlete?

[crazy canuck]

I do however question admitting less academically qualified individuals who do not have a strong desire to pursue academics on the chance they will "find their academic niche." And in any event, I doubt your precollege prep was nearly as bad as many athletes that are entering college.

But athletics is a department in the University, why shouldn't they be able to bring in students who are qualified for their programs.  If there was an artist or musician who was a genius but was not academically strong I still think they should go to a top art school so why wouldn't that also apply to an athlete?

Good example.  I understand that Indiana University has, or at least had, an excellent musical department that attracted the very best student musicians in North America.  I suppose AR would look dimly on that as well.

[alfred russel]

Why do you question it.  There are many paths leading to a university education.  Everyone is not like you.  Why assume that the path you took is superior?

And by the way you would be wrong about my pre-college prep.  I also attended high school with the primary purpose of playing ball.  If not for that I would probably have dropped out and started working in one of the mills like many of my friends at the time.

I don't assume that the path I took was superior. But I don't believe admitting people to strong academic institutions that have an 800 on the SAT (or even less) and struggled to get through high school is a good policy--I think it makes a joke of the institutions and detracts from the degree programs. Maybe you were that poorly prepared coming out of high school--I strongly doubt that simply because you have decent writing and reasoning skills and it is unlikely you learned those after 18 while coping with a college curriculum. But even if you were, you are one of a small minority.

Valmy: I really do doubt that schools like Duke are actively recruiting and admitting musicians who have a 2.5 high school GPA and 850 SAT score. I've yet to hear an interview with a member of a symphony orchestra that gave me the impression they were as stupid as some of the people we have admitted as athletes at our colleges.

[jimmy olsen]

Why do you question it.  There are many paths leading to a university education.  Everyone is not like you.  Why assume that the path you took is superior?

And by the way you would be wrong about my pre-college prep.  I also attended high school with the primary purpose of playing ball.  If not for that I would probably have dropped out and started working in one of the mills like many of my friends at the time.

I've yet to hear an interview with a member of a symphony orchestra that gave me the impression they were as stupid as some of the people we have admitted as athletes at our colleges.

How often do you hear an interview with a member of a symphony orchestra?

[alfred russel]

Why do you question it.  There are many paths leading to a university education.  Everyone is not like you.  Why assume that the path you took is superior?

And by the way you would be wrong about my pre-college prep.  I also attended high school with the primary purpose of playing ball.  If not for that I would probably have dropped out and started working in one of the mills like many of my friends at the time.

I've yet to hear an interview with a member of a symphony orchestra that gave me the impression they were as stupid as some of the people we have admitted as athletes at our colleges.

How often do you hear an interview with a member of a symphony orchestra?

Not often--too much airtime listening to college athletes I guess.

[crazy canuck]

Why do you question it.  There are many paths leading to a university education.  Everyone is not like you.  Why assume that the path you took is superior?

And by the way you would be wrong about my pre-college prep.  I also attended high school with the primary purpose of playing ball.  If not for that I would probably have dropped out and started working in one of the mills like many of my friends at the time.

I don't assume that the path I took was superior. But I don't believe admitting people to strong academic institutions that have an 800 on the SAT (or even less) and struggled to get through high school is a good policy--I think it makes a joke of the institutions and detracts from the degree programs. Maybe you were that poorly prepared coming out of high school--I strongly doubt that simply because you have decent writing and reasoning skills and it is unlikely you learned those after 18 while coping with a college curriculum. But even if you were, you are one of a small minority.

Valmy: I really do doubt that schools like Duke are actively recruiting and admitting musicians who have a 2.5 high school GPA and 850 SAT score. I've yet to hear an interview with a member of a symphony orchestra that gave me the impression they were as stupid as some of the people we have admitted as athletes at our colleges.

You certainly assume that people with higher GPAs and SATs are superior to people who are not.  I would not like to live in the kind of world you would want where the only thing that is valued is high grades.  Some of the dumbest most incompetent people I have had to work with over the years obtained very high grades.  I would much prefer well rounded individuals who have a variety of life experiences, including sports, not somebody who just devoted all their time and energy to obtaining top marks.  There is enough bias toward marks in the entrance requirements of universities as it is.  Why do you begrudge the university experience to those who enter through other doors?