2016 elections - because it's never too early

[alfred russel]

Trump rally postponed due to protests and chaos in Chicago.

That is really a disgrace.

For better or worse (and it is definitely for worse), Donald Trump is a leading candidate for president. Free speech is important for everyone, but more important for him than almost anyone else, and the government needs to be able to secure venues for him. This really gets back to the debate on natural rights that we had a day or two ago--if we assume this to be a natural right, if the government won't secure his ability to speak, then do his supporters have the right to secure it for him? I am certain many of them would say yes, and based on some incidents at his rallies are already acting on it.

It isn't just this one incident. Apparently his rallies are routinely interrupted by protesters.

I also get that he probably likes to be interrupted as it is part of the jerry springer like show he is trying to put on, and he probably loves the publicity from this, but that doesn't change things.

Is this a joke?

Why would you think it is a joke?

Imagine if a politician you supported couldn't get through a speech or give one at all in Chicago because republicans didn't like what he or she was saying.

[Monoriu]

Trump rally postponed due to protests and chaos in Chicago.

Whatever happened to "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

[Razgovory]

Hecklers are not new, and political campaigns have managed such things before non-violently.  I've been to many political events were hecklers up showed chanting, holding signs, or driving by in a truck with an enormous picture of an aborted baby on the side and honking a horn.  It never occurred to me that I might need to  kill those people.  Typically there are police officers present who escort the hecklers away.  While not new, the audience assaulting hecklers is more typical of radical movements like the German-American Bund.

[DGuller]

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.  You can be free to say what you want, but other people should be free to lynch you if they don't like what you said.

[Valmy]

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.  You can be free to say what you want, but other people should be free to lynch you if they don't like what you said.

Actually I think lynching is illegal...oh wait I see what you did there,

[Razgovory]

I can't help be reminded of the German-American Bund rally at Madison Square Garden where there was a beating of a heckler.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gU9op16rjQ

[Valmy]

I can't help be reminded of the German-American Bund rally at Madison Square Garden where there was a beating of a heckler.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gU9op16rjQ

That was one very courageous American Jew. I get kind of emotional when I see that scene.

[CountDeMoney]

I for one applaud the bravery of minorities in the face of targeted violence.

Open-carry gun protesters greet President Obama in Texas
By Mike DeBonis March 11 at 1:13 PM
Washington Post

AUSTIN — When President Obama lands here Friday to give a talk at this year's South by Southwest Interactive festival, he will enter the land of oak-smoked brisket, live music, "thinkfluencers" — and openly brandished firearms.

For the third consecutive year, activists are using the yearly music and culture festival to bring attention to their defense of gun rights by openly carrying guns in public, as is legal in Texas. This year, however, there are a couple of twists: One, the open carry of handguns — as opposed to rifles and shotguns — is legal for the first time. Second, the most powerful and well-guarded man in the world will be in town.

C.J. Grisham of Open Carry Texas, who is leading a previously planned protest of as many as 20 activists in downtown Austin on Friday, said Obama's visit will have no effect on his group's plans.

"The president is an American, just like every one of us is an American," Grisham said. "He's nothing special. Granted, he is the president, but him being there for us doesn't change anything. We're no threat to the president, and the president better not be a threat to us."

Grisham, who said he plans to carry a rifle, said he does not expect any sort of confrontation related to the presidential visit: "The point is to engage with the public, explain to them that you know it's not the guns people need to be afraid of, it's the person, and to show the lighter side and the friendlier side of gun owners."

But the presence of openly brandished firearms in the vicinity of a presidential visit has some on edge — a feeling encouraged by a social media posting earlier this week.

After Grisham noted on his Facebook page earlier this week that Obama's visit would coincide with his open-carry demonstration, a commenter said: "If you get a clear shot, please fire for effect!"

Other pro-gun commenters quickly pointed out that even suggesting a presidential potshot was unwise, and Robert Hoback, a spokesman for the Secret Service, said Thursday that the agency "is aware of this posting and is conducting the appropriate follow-up."

Grisham said he had not heard from either local or federal law enforcement about concerns related to Obama's visit, and he insisted that the protesters intended to fully exercise their legal rights. "We're going to go, and we're going to do our event the way we normally do our event," he said. "We're there peacefully and lawfully to exercise our rights and hand out educational materials and nothing more. That's it. We're not going to be dictated to by any government entity in public to say we can or can't exercise our rights just because some human being decided he wants to take a left down a street we just happen to be on."

But while gun-rights advocates might want to bring their firearms near the president, the Secret Service has invoked its authority under federal law to prevent that from happening. Hoback said in an email that Sections 3056 and 1752 of Title 18 in the U.S. Code give the agency the right to prevent "firearms from entering sites visited by" officials they are protecting, "including those located in open-carry states."

"Only authorized law enforcement personnel working in conjunction with the Secret Service for a particular event may carry a firearm inside of the protected site," Hoback said. "Individuals determined to be carrying firearms will not be allowed past a predetermined outer perimeter checkpoint, regardless of whether they possess a ticket to the event."

It appears likely that the protesters will be away from the presidential perimeter. The Friday protest is expected to move south from the Texas Capitol, north of the Colorado River. Obama will be giving his remarks at a venue just south of the river. Grisham said he expected activists to stay north of the river, though small groups have been encouraged to roam around the downtown area and "go wherever you can go." (South by Southwest has an official no-guns policy, but that applies only to private event spaces.)

Outside the Capitol shortly after noon Friday, the roughly half-dozen protesters were outnumbered by reporters before they started their 12-block march to the river.

Grisham, carrying a holstered 19th-century Colt Army revolver, said he did not intend to approach the perimeter of the Obama event.

"I prefer to stay as far away from President Obama as possible," he said, citing the Jan. 26 shooting of federal land occupier LaVoy Finicum by Oregon State Police after being chased down a highway by state and federal agents.

Austin Police Chief Art Acevedo said Friday that he was confident the protesters would not cause a problem. "We're very used to them here in Austin," he said. "They understand that when they cross a line, they hurt their cause." He also said law enforcement has "a deep appreciation for their First Amendment rights."

The protests — and the Facebook threat — have gotten the attention of gun-control supporters in Texas and elsewhere. Erika Soto Lamb, a spokeswoman for the advocacy group Everytown for Gun Safety, said the open-carry activists underscore the weaknesses in Texas gun laws.

"As they said, they are planning to demonstrate around the festival to reach out to the younger generation," she said. "But when the law doesn't require background checks on gun sales, there's no way to know if the guy carrying a handgun next to you is a political activist, or a cause to duck or cover."

For law enforcement, the protests are making an already complicated day even more complicated. "You've got South by Southwest ... and then you have a presidential visit and an open-carry protest connected to that visit," Acevedo said. "It's just a perfect storm."

[Valmy]

I am not exactly sure what they are trying to do besides make us all hate them.

[CountDeMoney]

I would like to think they would be attempting suicide by US Secret Service, but that would be hoping against hope, I suppose.

[HisMajestyBOB]

Max and I had an... animated... discussion over lunch today. We have differing opinions on who to vote for in the primaries. 

Which one of you is for Clinton, and which one of you is for Sanders?

He's an Albertan. You tell me.

He's voting for his fellow Albertan, Ted Cruz?

[Razgovory]

I remember one of our many debates here on the subject of politicians where Max and I were different sides.  I argued that it was good to have career politicians as politics and administration are skills.  Max disagreed saying that it would preferable to have less experienced people.  Not an uncommon idea.  Right now we are seeing exactly what non-professional politicians look like (arguably a large number of tea party candidates were the same).  In my opinion, it's an extremely ugly situation.  Maybe Max disagrees, I don't know, but I do feel vindicated.

[Barrister]

Max and I had an... animated... discussion over lunch today. We have differing opinions on who to vote for in the primaries. 

Which one of you is for Clinton, and which one of you is for Sanders?

He's an Albertan. You tell me.

Max, God bless him, is far from a typical Albertan, what with going and marrying an American hussy like you.

So I'm guessing he's for Sanders, and you are for Clinton?

I don't see Max as a Trump voter, although I could be shocked I guess (much like when I learned he changed his first name).

[Razgovory]

If I was 10 years younger I might go for Sanders.  These days all that class warfare talk makes really wary.  I don't mind some regulation on banks and stock brokerages, but I don't feel comfortable labeling them "The Enemy".

[alfred russel]

Hecklers are not new, and political campaigns have managed such things before non-violently.  I've been to many political events were hecklers up showed chanting, holding signs, or driving by in a truck with an enormous picture of an aborted baby on the side and honking a horn.  It never occurred to me that I might need to  kill those people.  Typically there are police officers present who escort the hecklers away.  While not new, the audience assaulting hecklers is more typical of radical movements like the German-American Bund.

I absolutely do not think anyone should be killing hecklers or protesters.

Escorting hecklers out is a fine response, but if we are getting to the point that a presidential candidate is having to cancel events and the events that are held are being disrupted, then steps need to be taken to prevent that from happening. Such as letting the protesters spend a couple nights in jail and having them brought up on charges.