In Italy, Illusion Is the Only Reality; Berlusconi On His Way Back To The Top

[Richard Hakluyt]

Nobody ever talks about "The Italian Economic Miracle", but their growth in the 30 years or so after the war was quite astounding. A far more transformational change than what happened in Germany, which had been an industrial powerhouse already for almost a century.

Yes, one does wonder how well they would have done if their politics and corruption had been closer to NW European norms 

[mongers]

Nobody ever talks about "The Italian Economic Miracle", but their growth in the 30 years or so after the war was quite astounding. A far more transformational change than what happened in Germany, which had been an industrial powerhouse already for almost a century.

Yes, one does wonder how well they would have done if their politics and corruption had been closer to NW European norms 

Part of it was in the failed industrial mobilisation during the war, as we all know their wartime weapons production was a disaster, but an awful lot of investment went into new factories, machine tools etc.

So the Italians found themselves at the end of the war with new engineering facilities, whose machine tools had only lightly used, ready to produce all sorts of consumer goods.

Whereas the UK fought the war with a huge stock of old industrial infrastructure/tool, which were then worked to the bone and had to go on producing goods for export and military equipment for the cold war confrontation. I vaguely remember reading that a surprising amount of victorian industrial machinery was still being used at the start of WW2.

[MadImmortalMan]

Nobody ever talks about "The Italian Economic Miracle", but their growth in the 30 years or so after the war was quite astounding.

wut

[Richard Hakluyt]

That is a very odd and potentially confusing graph, but if you look at it carefully it does not contradict the idea that the 30 years post-WW2 were the best years ever for growth in the Italian economy.

[alfred russel]

That is a very odd and potentially confusing graph, but if you look at it carefully it does not contradict the idea that the 30 years post-WW2 were the best years ever for growth in the Italian economy.

But it is actually rather easy to grow quickly when you start with your country in rubble.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Yes, but it went beyond reconstruction and the regaining of the pre-war position. Some time in the early 70s Italy's GDP surpassed the UK's and a few years later that of France. Then the low growth period started and Italy's relative position declined.

I would rather put down some statistics than just make an assertion based on half-remembered books I read years ago, but find it difficult to locate relevant statistics on the internet 

[Martinus]

Italy hasn't had international credibility since... ever.

I would say they still had it around Diocletian, not sure afterwards.

[Eddie Teach]

They lost it when Constantine set up shop in Turkey.

[MadImmortalMan]

I'd like to see the stuff you read. Obviously, my source for that graph isn't the most reliable or optimistic. I lifted it from a Zero Hedge story about how France and Italy have been going downhill since the war. My whole life I've been hearing that Italy is an economic basket case though.


Edit: Here it is.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-27/centruy-french-and-italian-economic-decline

[Admiral Yi]

I'd like to see the stuff you read. Obviously, my source for that graph isn't the most reliable or optimistic. I lifted it from a Zero Hedge story about how France and Italy have been going downhill since the war. My whole life I've been hearing that Italy is an economic basket case though.


Edit: Here it is.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-27/centruy-french-and-italian-economic-decline

I think you're misinterpreting the graph.  It's growth rate, not level.  So just after the war Italy achieved 60% growth over 7 years.  Not too shabby.

[derspiess]

That is a very odd and potentially confusing graph, but if you look at it carefully it does not contradict the idea that the 30 years post-WW2 were the best years ever for growth in the Italian economy.

But it is actually rather easy to grow quickly when you start with your country in rubble.

Yeah, I mean look at Haiti.

[Sheilbh]

Nobody ever talks about "The Italian Economic Miracle", but their growth in the 30 years or so after the war was quite astounding. A far more transformational change than what happened in Germany, which had been an industrial powerhouse already for almost a century.

Yep. In Europe only West Germany beat Italy economically in the thirty glorious years.

Yeah, I mean look at Haiti.

Ironically the only country with lower growth than Italy for the last decade.

I'd like to see the stuff you read. Obviously, my source for that graph isn't the most reliable or optimistic. I lifted it from a Zero Hedge story about how France and Italy have been going downhill since the war. My whole life I've been hearing that Italy is an economic basket case though.

Italy's always been a political basketcase. But it's really only been since the Euro and Berlusconi that it was economically screwed too.

Edit: Incidentally, from a Euro-reformist think tank's blog, the Grillini MPs and Senators have finally met:

And who are you again? Grillo's MPs and Senators meet each other for the first time

163 MPs and Senators-elect from the Five Star Movement met in Rome yesterday and today. As an initial party meeting after a general election it was quite unusual: despite belonging to the same party, most of the elected representatives had never heard of each other before, let alone met. Beppe Grillo himself did not know many of them, and that's why he joined the meeting today - along with the Five-Star Movement's media guru Gianroberto Casaleggio. Remember, the Five Star Movement selected its candidates through an on-line survey, so no face-to-face contact involved.

This shows just how far away the Five-Star Movement is from being a traditional political party - by any standard. And there's some more stuff:
Large part of today's meeting was live-streamed and available to everyone online;
At the meeting, each of the 163 parliamentarians-elect was given the opportunity to introduce him/herself to the others, and explain what his/her background and areas of interest were;
The MPs and Senators-elect are all considered 'spokesmen' and 'spokeswomen' of the Five-Star Movement;
The 163 today chose their faction leaders in both houses of the Italian parliament by a simple show of hands. The faction leaders will only hold the post for three months, and are to be replaced after that.

Incidentally, the faction leader in the Italian Senate is Vito Crimi, a 40-year old (the minimum legal age to be elected as a Senator in Italy) judicial assistant from the Northern town of Brescia.  The faction leader in the Chamber of Deputies, the lower house, is Roberta Lombardi. She is 39, holds a degree in Law and works for an interior furniture company.

Whatever one thinks of the Five-Star Movement, it was quite impressive to see so many Italian MPs in their thirties (or even twenties) in the same room. Finally some fresh air in Italian politics, some might say. We still don't know what the Five-Star Movement will do next. Grillo made a quick appearance at the very beginning of the meeting today, saying that the Movement will only vote for the laws which fit with its manifesto - but he said that several times before.

It remains to be seen how this enthusiastic but inexperienced lot will react when the new Italian parliament convenes - on 15 March, or a bit earlier - and talks on the formation of the next government enter their decisive stage. The time for post-election celebrations may already be over for the Grillini. The question is: will this innovative approach to party politics hold (think party discipline) when things get serious?

[alfred russel]

That is a very odd and potentially confusing graph, but if you look at it carefully it does not contradict the idea that the 30 years post-WW2 were the best years ever for growth in the Italian economy.

But it is actually rather easy to grow quickly when you start with your country in rubble.

Yeah, I mean look at Haiti.

I realize you are trying to make a joke, but in the aftermath of the 2010 earthquakes Haiti has actually posted strong growth rates--a lot better than the US and Europe.

http://www.caribjournal.com/2012/06/18/haiti-led-caribbean-gdp-growth-last-year-will-again-in-2012-eclac/

(article titled: Haiti Led Caribbean GDP Growth Last Year, Will Again in 2012: ECLAC)

[Neil]

Why would we think that growth rates are at all important?

[Razgovory]

I had a pretty good growth rate from 0-17.  Then inflation kicked in.