Elie Wiesel calls out Mitt Romney on dead Jew baptisms.

[Josquius]

Yeah, its not like exhuming someone. By the Mormons writing in their little database that so and so is now a mormon it doesn't change that in official records, the records of the religion they actually believe in, for all anybody they care about is concerned, they remain untouched as what they were.
Its not like me coming along and chopping off your arm and saying "Ha! Now you're an amputee!" its me writing down somewhere that you are one...it doesn't change that you're not one bit.

[dps]

If a Mormon called on Jewish leaders to change their religious practices because they offended Mormon sensibilities, I'd think most people here would take the position that the Mormon should shut the fuck up and let the Jews practices their faith as they see fit.  I see no reason to not think that the reverse should't apply as well.

[Sheilbh]

Except that the Jews and pretty much everyone else in the world but Mormons don't buy into that - so why raise the fuss?  Besides most religions are offensive to other religions as at their core they deny the truth of other faiths.  That's Religion 101.

Lots of religious groups have asked the Mormons to stop this, including the Catholic Church, and they had an agreement with Jewish leaders not to do it except in the case of direct ancestors.  They've all asked the Mormons to do it precisely because even though they don't believe the Mormon view, they still find it offensive.

It isn't all like that. There's no desecration occurring here.  The Mormons are just including in their ranks people who would reject that label.

It's the spiritual equivalent.  One's desecrating a shell of a corpse after all.  Depending on your perspective the proxy baptism's desecrating someone's memory, or spirit, or soul.

Same story for both, no?  After all, this is the sort of stuff that people research during campaigns. No need to give such political minded efforts legitimacy by espousing their cause.

No.  Assuming this was politically motivated she's looking for famous controversial dead people the Mormons have posthumously baptised.  Wiesel's responding to being told this has happened to his parents.  There's a world of difference.

[Razgovory]

I'd be happy if someone remembered me after I was dead.

[Sheilbh]

If a Mormon called on Jewish leaders to change their religious practices because they offended Mormon sensibilities, I'd think most people here would take the position that the Mormon should shut the fuck up and let the Jews practices their faith as they see fit.  I see no reason to not think that the reverse should't apply as well.

But I can't think of a comparison.  Most religious practices happen among and between the faithful.  I like the agreement reached that this is okay if the Mormons are doing it to their immediate ancestors.  But trawling the history of Judaism (or any other faith for that matter) for prominent posthumous converts that have no connection to the Mormon church is far more distasteful.

If the Jews practiced, I don't know, posthumous bar mitzvah's I think it'd be as offensive.

[dps]

If a Mormon called on Jewish leaders to change their religious practices because they offended Mormon sensibilities, I'd think most people here would take the position that the Mormon should shut the fuck up and let the Jews practices their faith as they see fit.  I see no reason to not think that the reverse should't apply as well.

But I can't think of a comparison.  Most religious practices happen among and between the faithful.  I like the agreement reached that this is okay if the Mormons are doing it to their immediate ancestors.  But trawling the history of Judaism (or any other faith for that matter) for prominent posthumous converts that have no connection to the Mormon church is far more distasteful.

If the Jews practiced, I don't know, posthumous bar mitzvah's I think it'd be as offensive.

Sure, I see why Jews would be offended by this, but then Jews and Moslems should be offended that I eat pork, but too fucking bad.

[Sheilbh]

Sure, I see why Jews would be offended by this, but then Jews and Moslems should be offended that I eat pork, but too fucking bad.

Of course not.  But you're doing that to yourself.  If you decided to wrap a Jewish corpse in bacon then, yeah, I think they'd have a right to be offended and ask you to stop even if you thought it was an essential religious right.

As I say though I'm not certain what purpose this serves within Mormon theology because it isn't necessary for eternal salvation.  I think the family angle is that because of the multi-tiered heaven your ancestors will be at a lower level than you.  Why you'd then also want to promote Wiesenthal's parents is beyond me.

[Ideologue]

You really think it's a big deal?  Sounds like nothing to me.  It's not like they're digging up Elie's parents and sloshing water on their skeletons is it?  What's the harm if a bunch of white guys in long johns proclaim this or that Jew baptized?

No kidding.  I have no problem with my religious relatives praying for me.  If a stranger wants to baptize me when I'm dead, awesome.  Hell, if I'm right, it doesn't matter (and if the Jews are right, then I doubt YHWH is going to be pissed at the Jewsoul baptized against his will); if I'm wrong (or they are) maybe it makes me look better to Elohim and his billion wives, and I think we'll both need all the help we can get with Space God.

[Razgovory]

It sounds like the equivalent of someone like Viking getting his panties in knot because some goof said, "America is a Christian nation".

[Razgovory]

incidentally, doesn't Catholicism have something similar with the concept of the Harrowing of Hell, and Christ saving the Patriarchs?  I mean, they are theoretically the ancestors of the Jews.

[CountDeMoney]

You really think it's a big deal?  Sounds like nothing to me.  It's not like they're digging up Elie's parents and sloshing water on their skeletons is it?  What's the harm if a bunch of white guys in long johns proclaim this or that Jew baptized?

They died because they were Jews, and baptizing them or memory as Mormons is offensive.

[CountDeMoney]

I agree, but for some reason a lot of people get really offended when the Mormons 'baptize' their ancestors.  A branch of my family is Mormon so naturally lots of my ancestors were baptised but... I don't give a rat's ass.

Some people do.  That's the issue.

[CountDeMoney]

In general? Maybe. In an election cycle? Shady at best.

Okay.  But in that case I'd ask more about the person checking the database than Wiesel for his response after finding out that his and Wiesenthal's parents have been baptised.

I'm interested in knowing why the Mormons are continuing to do it when they were ordered in 1995 in an out-of-court settlement to knock this shit off with Holocaust victims.

[CountDeMoney]

I don't really see how the Holocaust is applicable here. I completely understand the vigilance and never forget attitude as essential to preventing another such tragedy on such a scale...but the actions of Mormons hardly seem to rise to the same level. Hell for most people they are a wacky religion no one pays much attention to unless they start trying to have multiple wives and forcing children to have babies.

Unfortunately, that "whacky religion" happens to be running the most expensive, comprehensive and complex geneological project in history, costing them unknown millions of dollars a year.  Their records facilities are in Utah mountains, with EMP shielding that would make the Pentagon blush.  This isn't some family tree project; this is designed to last for centuries.

[CountDeMoney]

The way I see it is that if you're a believer you're ending someone's Jewishness and converting them to the faith after they've died - so what the Mormons are doing, on their terms, is I think objectionable.  From a Jewish perspective of non-believers I think it's more that these were people who were attacked and killed for their religious identity, for someone to then be saying they're changing that after they've died is just very offensive.  As I say it's like exhuming a body from the Jewish cemetery and giving it a Christian burial.

It's no different than the forced baptisms of Jews during the various phases of the Inquisition.  It's another form of forced conversion;  it just happens to be a posthumous one.