The Great Arab Revolt Continues.

[Scipio]

I hate to be a pedantic dick about this, but no Persian is Arab.

[Darth Wagtaros]

I hate to be a pedantic dick about this, but no Persian is Arab.

What about one who's father is Arab?

[Scipio]

I hate to be a pedantic dick about this, but no Persian is Arab.

What about one who's father is Arab?

Neither fish nor fowl.  All cop.

[Admiral Yi]

The philosophical question here is, of course, should we care for universal values at the expense of our well beign? And on "we" I mean people in the first world (well, or the margins of it, like me and Mart)

Example: Saud Arabia has a despicable governance. But are we ready to see our currently VERY fragile economy panic and crumble as the mob takes that country over? Same goes for the Gulf States.

Are we ready and willing to pay the price of arab democracies? Which will be constant unpredictability in the flow of spi... oil, rampant anti-semite populism, and a huge flood of immigrants?

You're talking as if we can push a button and make the protests go away.  Short of flying the 82nd Airborne into Bahrein I don't see how we have much, if any, control over the situation.

[Tamas]

The philosophical question here is, of course, should we care for universal values at the expense of our well beign? And on "we" I mean people in the first world (well, or the margins of it, like me and Mart)

Example: Saud Arabia has a despicable governance. But are we ready to see our currently VERY fragile economy panic and crumble as the mob takes that country over? Same goes for the Gulf States.

Are we ready and willing to pay the price of arab democracies? Which will be constant unpredictability in the flow of spi... oil, rampant anti-semite populism, and a huge flood of immigrants?

You're talking as if we can push a button and make the protests go away.  Short of flying the 82nd Airborne into Bahrein I don't see how we have much, if any, control over the situation.

Well what I am saying is that perhaps the Western public's take on this is mistaken, these unrealistic expectations on a better world rising up from this event (which is possible I think, but far from being the most probable outcome) are fueled by the media, and since we do live in democracies, public opinion on a matter can push governments to take actions which are counterproductive to their countries' interest.


Like hastily taking the side of the severly underorganized, terrorist-supported underdog in a tribal civil war

[DGuller]

What's the chance that all this unrest results in warfare between countries, like an another Saddam Hussein rising up?

[jamesww]

What's the chance that all this unrest results in warfare between countries, like an another Saddam Hussein rising up?

YGIAGAM - ie :shrug:

[Admiral Yi]

What's the chance that all this unrest results in warfare between countries, like an another Saddam Hussein rising up?

Only if the Iranians start dicking around with the Shiites in the Gulf.  0.001% chance.

[Darth Wagtaros]

The philosophical question here is, of course, should we care for universal values at the expense of our well beign? And on "we" I mean people in the first world (well, or the margins of it, like me and Mart)

Example: Saud Arabia has a despicable governance. But are we ready to see our currently VERY fragile economy panic and crumble as the mob takes that country over? Same goes for the Gulf States.

Are we ready and willing to pay the price of arab democracies? Which will be constant unpredictability in the flow of spi... oil, rampant anti-semite populism, and a huge flood of immigrants?

You're talking as if we can push a button and make the protests go away.  Short of flying the 82nd Airborne into Bahrein I don't see how we have much, if any, control over the situation.

Well what I am saying is that perhaps the Western public's take on this is mistaken, these unrealistic expectations on a better world rising up from this event (which is possible I think, but far from being the most probable outcome) are fueled by the media, and since we do live in democracies, public opinion on a matter can push governments to take actions which are counterproductive to their countries' interest.


Like hastily taking the side of the severly underorganized, terrorist-supported underdog in a tribal civil war

The Fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR was rightly hailed as the opening of a new era of international peace and cooperation.

[Tamas]

The Fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR was rightly hailed as the opening of a new era of international peace and cooperation.

Apples and oranges.

[The Brain]

Great. Now I'm hungry.

[Martinus]

The Fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR was rightly hailed as the opening of a new era of international peace and cooperation.

Apples and oranges.

How? Both Eastern Europeans and Arabs have nationalist and religiously retarded tendencies, both have been living under dictatorships, both view the West with a mixture of envy, amazement and "you left us to rot" resentment, both have very little history of actual democracy, as opposed to living under either foreign rule or local tin pot dictator/monarch/tyrant, both have shitty economies but with a big potential.

Now, I share your hope that there are differences so Egypt does not end up a failed state like Hungary, but still the experience is likely to be similar.

[jimmy olsen]

The Fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR was rightly hailed as the opening of a new era of international peace and cooperation.

Apples and oranges.

More like Apples and Cabbages.

[Tamas]

The Fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR was rightly hailed as the opening of a new era of international peace and cooperation.

Apples and oranges.

How? Both Eastern Europeans and Arabs have nationalist and religiously retarded tendencies, both have been living under dictatorships, both view the West with a mixture of envy, amazement and "you left us to rot" resentment, both have very little history of actual democracy, as opposed to living under either foreign rule or local tin pot dictator/monarch/tyrant, both have shitty economies but with a big potential.

Now, I share your hope that there are differences so Egypt does not end up a failed state like Hungary, but still the experience is likely to be similar.

East euros had been neighbors of the west for quite a while. In fact, their values come from the same roots. Really, to say that East Euro stance toward Western values is as the same as the muslim stance is trolling of the highest caliber.

Their political and cultural development around the time of WW2, altough lacking compared to the West, were well ahead of the general Arab one of present day.

The problems of commie East Europe was plenty. However, illiteracy and overpopulation was not among them.

There are similarities of course. Most notably that realizing the gap between western standards of living and their own played a big part in triggering the changes.
For the arabs, it was the internets, for us, it was VHS recorders.

[Admiral Yi]

 

The most obvious difference is that the Arab autocrats don't have 40 armoured divisions poised to invade West Germany.