Israel-Hamas War 2023

[The Brain]

Has the idea of campus as a Safe Space been abandoned?

[Savonarola]

Mmmmm... This made me think. I remember there was a cafeteria in the basement of Hamilton Hall... But it seems it's not there anymore. Damn, this somehow made me feel old.

The first rule of guerilla warfare is always pack a lunch.  The second is to seize the food court.  TE Lawrence covers these both extensively in "Seven Pillars of Wisdom."

Also, there were quite a few campus protests when I was over there. One got quite nasty (although not as much as this one, for sure). But these things eventually just blow over. In Europe we get those dime a dozen.

Given the fortitude the protestors have shown thus far I expect they'll stand in solidarity with the Palestinians throughout eternity or until the start of summer vacation, whichever comes first.

 

Seizing buildings is unusual here, and reminiscent of the 1960s era student protest (my dad was burned out of his dorm in a race riot.)  I think that is why this has garnered so much attention.  It's also unusual in that the protests are limited largely to universities (although not entirely, there was a large one in majority-Muslim Detroit suburb of Dearborn.)

[Tamas]

I haven't been following these protests at all, but was it really that impossible to just let them sit there and get bored? Were they preventing access to buildings?

[The Minsky Moment]

Yeah.  I mean letting yourself be arrested for riding at the front of the bus while black is great political theatre, same as chaining yourself to an old growth tree you're trying to prevent being logged - there's a clear connection between what you're doing and your cause, even if it might be against the law.

It's hard to come up with compelling theater for a protest aimed at another country's foreign policy.  Israel's government certainly is not going to influenced by what a handful of students at Columbia University are doing.  The Vietnam era protests were different in that respect - everyone in the 18-22 age group had a direct personal stake in the prosecution of the war and there were on campus connections like ROTC.

Presumably the model is the South African divestment campaign but that was a longer, more patient effort that didn't (as I recall) involve physical occupation of buildings.  And while the ANC had a militant wing, it didn't carry out anything like Oct 7.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Trump in his long Time Magazine interview a couple days ago makes it official he no longer supports a two-state solution:

Transactional isolationism may be the main strain of Trump's foreign policy, but there are limits. Trump says he would join Israel's side in a confrontation with Iran. "If they attack Israel, yes, we would be there," he tells me. He says he has come around to the now widespread belief in Israel that a Palestinian state existing side by side in peace is increasingly unlikely. "There was a time when I thought two-state could work," he says. "Now I think two-state is going to be very, very tough."

Listen, I hate Trump on many levels--but this is the right policy here, and one Biden and the Jihadi Dems will never see the light on.

[dane]

Otto, seeing your changing stance on Trump has been one of the most unsettling things that I have personally witnessed since he left office. The fact that someone as knowledgeable, well-reasoning and thoughtful as you can suddenly and seemingly out of nowhere start supporting Trump really makes me fear for the future of this country.   

[OttoVonBismarck]

I'm sorry you feel that way--it isn't a decision I have made lightly.

Something JR mentioned alludes to a core of my issue--the campaign against apartheid South Africa. That is really the playbook the Hamastans want us to run against Israel.

As I have observed the pro-Palestinians in America switch to full bore antisemitism, pro-Hamas, pro-genocide rhetoric, and as I see very concerning polling about huge percentages of young Democrats support Hamas, don't believe Israel has a right to exist etc, I feel like we're at a dangerous breaking point for Israel. If American support for Israel falls, it will truly have no protector against attempts to "formally delegitimize it." Think widespread sanctions, divestment, as bad as was used against South Africa. The difference of course is the South African apartheid government deserved it--Israel doesn't. There is no apartheid in Israel, there is a little bit of land that Arabs lost in a war they started, they have everything they could ever need in terms of land, they just don't want Jews living anywhere in the Middle East.

Unfortunately when Joe caved to the Hamastan left (and note by the way, you can still find interviews where they say they aren't voting for Joe, his caving accomplished nothing but making pro-Israel voters like myself turn their back on him), he told me he wasn't willing to stand up for Israel and prevent the outcome I laid out. Only a return to Republican rule can set things right. The far left must be punished.

[garbon]

I'm sorry you feel that way--it isn't a decision I have made lightly.

Something JR mentioned alludes to a core of my issue--the campaign against apartheid South Africa. That is really the playbook the Hamastans want us to run against Israel.

As I have observed the pro-Palestinians in America switch to full bore antisemitism, pro-Hamas, pro-genocide rhetoric, and as I see very concerning polling about huge percentages of young Democrats support Hamas, don't believe Israel has a right to exist etc, I feel like we're at a dangerous breaking point for Israel. If American support for Israel falls, it will truly have no protector against attempts to "formally delegitimize it." Think widespread sanctions, divestment, as bad as was used against South Africa. The difference of course is the South African apartheid government deserved it--Israel doesn't. There is no apartheid in Israel, there is a little bit of land that Arabs lost in a war they started, they have everything they could ever need in terms of land, they just don't want Jews living anywhere in the Middle East.

Unfortunately when Joe caved to the Hamastan left (and note by the way, you can still find interviews where they say they aren't voting for Joe, his caving accomplished nothing but making pro-Israel voters like myself turn their back on him), he told me he wasn't willing to stand up for Israel and prevent the outcome I laid out. Only a return to Republican rule can set things right. The far left must be punished.

Israel is the most important issue facing America? Or at least enough so that it should be the deciding factor for the presidency?

[grumbler]

Otto, seeing your changing stance on Trump has been one of the most unsettling things that I have personally witnessed since he left office. The fact that someone as knowledgeable, well-reasoning and thoughtful as you can suddenly and seemingly out of nowhere start supporting Trump really makes me fear for the future of this country.   

Plenty of people as knowledgeable, well-reasoning and thoughtful as OvB have been supporting Trump lately; Marjory Tayler-Green, for example, or Matt Gaetz. Those who are that knowledgeable, well-reasoning and thoughtful have no difficulty imagining a fantasy Earth where their lies are really truths and their fantasy ideas make sense.

[Valmy]

How did Joe cave? By allowing that pointless and toothless UN resolution? This is the kind of insane over-reacting I am talking about.

He just sent tons of aid to Israel when it doesn't even really need it to fight Hamas.

So sure, punish the far left by joining them in acting irrationally. That will show them.

[grumbler]

How did Joe cave? By allowing that pointless and toothless UN resolution? This is the kind of insane over-reacting I am talking about.

He just sent tons of aid to Israel when it doesn't even really need it to fight Hamas.

So sure, punish the far left by joining them in acting irrationally. That will show them.

Do you actually believe that you can reason with the OvBs of the world?  Just read anything he has written in the last few pages of this thread and you'll comprehend hw unhinged he is these days.  He obviously does not care about facts or evidence or reasoning; if it doesn't fit it on a bumper sticker, he doesn't read it.

[FunkMonk]

Otto, seeing your changing stance on Trump has been one of the most unsettling things that I have personally witnessed since he left office. The fact that someone as knowledgeable, well-reasoning and thoughtful as you can suddenly and seemingly out of nowhere start supporting Trump really makes me fear for the future of this country. 

[Grey Fox]

Otto, seeing your changing stance on Trump has been one of the most unsettling things that I have personally witnessed since he left office. The fact that someone as knowledgeable, well-reasoning and thoughtful as you can suddenly and seemingly out of nowhere start supporting Trump really makes me fear for the future of this country.   

5 months!

[Barrister]

Unfortunately when Joe caved to the Hamastan left (and note by the way, you can still find interviews where they say they aren't voting for Joe, his caving accomplished nothing but making pro-Israel voters like myself turn their back on him), he told me he wasn't willing to stand up for Israel and prevent the outcome I laid out. Only a return to Republican rule can set things right. The far left must be punished.

I can certainly argue aspects of Biden's presidency wrt Israel, but he certainly hasn't "caved to the Hamastan left" and his government is giving significant support to Israel.

Joe Biden is definitely not a representative of the far-left (as you point out the far left is quite unhappy with the Biden presidency wrt Israel).

I can not for the life of me understand why or how voting for Trump would "punish" the far left, whereas on the other hand I can see a lot of really important reasons why voting for Trump would be incredibly harmful to democracy in the USA.

[Oexmelin]

Only Trump can stand up to the Bolshevik.