Israel-Hamas War 2023

[OttoVonBismarck]

No it isn't. Spreading democracy was no part of America's founding or political history. It was something that was promoted to help establish America's post-WWII hegemony, pretending it was foundational is fake and dumb.

[Admiral Yi]

Not as dumb as pretending I said foundational.

[Eddie Teach]

We really ought to be focused on fixing our own problems right now. All our attempts at spreading democracy lately have done is create resentment.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Not as dumb as pretending I said foundational.

"Organizing principals" and foundational are synonymous terms.

[The Minsky Moment]

There should free and democratic Palestinian state along the 1967 borders. That was supposedly always been the policy goal of the US.

Nope, that is over now.

Indeed.  Israel wants lebensraum and it believes that every stolen bit of land is irreversibly its own.  Might makes right in Israeli relations with Palestinians.  At least they've learned the lesson that the Nazis and Soviets taught:  nibble, don't gulp.

Gulping worked out just fine for the USA.

[Josquius]

Trying to fight to defend your land doesn't invalidate your claim to the land.

What exactly are you referring to you when you say "fight to defend their land?"

Apparently every single time some Palestinians didn't just let some Israelis do whatever they wanted with zero complaint since the 1940s.

Arabs control virtually the entire region, they have lost a small part due to 75 years of misbehavior. They will be fine.

This really does echo Russophile sentiments on Ukraine heavily.

[OttoVonBismarck]

There should free and democratic Palestinian state along the 1967 borders. That was supposedly always been the policy goal of the US.

Nope, that is over now.

Indeed.  Israel wants lebensraum and it believes that every stolen bit of land is irreversibly its own.  Might makes right in Israeli relations with Palestinians.  At least they've learned the lesson that the Nazis and Soviets taught:  nibble, don't gulp.

Gulping worked out just fine for the USA.

Grumbler's post is characteristically stupid--I often wonder when senility / Alzheimer's will finally take him, isn't he pushing 80 years old? But anyway, Israel has not acquired any new land in decades--in fact it has given land away; see the Sinai Cession to Egypt.

[Josquius]

There should free and democratic Palestinian state along the 1967 borders. That was supposedly always been the policy goal of the US.

Nope, that is over now.

Indeed.  Israel wants lebensraum and it believes that every stolen bit of land is irreversibly its own.  Might makes right in Israeli relations with Palestinians.  At least they've learned the lesson that the Nazis and Soviets taught:  nibble, don't gulp.

Gulping worked out just fine for the USA.

Grumbler's post is characteristically stupid--I often wonder when senility / Alzheimer's will finally take him, isn't he pushing 80 years old? But anyway, Israel has not acquired any new land in decades--in fact it has given land away; see the Sinai Cession to Egypt.

This just isn't true.
https://www.vox.com/world/2016/12/30/14088842/israeli-settlements-explained-in-5-charts

[OttoVonBismarck]

Israel has controlled all of that land since 1967. That chart doesn't track control of the West Bank, it tracks housing developments within Israeli territory.

[viper37]

Israel has controlled all of that land since 1967. That chart doesn't track control of the West Bank, it tracks housing developments within Israeli territory.

Israel has just annexed land at the beginning of the war.

[Tamas]

Honest question because I have no idea: did the Palestinian organisation(s) in power at the time accept the 1967 borders as the borders of Palestine before they lost said borders?

[Grey Fox]

Honest question because I have no idea: did the Palestinian organisation(s) in power at the time accept the 1967 borders as the borders of Palestine before they lost said borders?

Egypt & Jordan ? We keep letting them hoof the hook.

[Barrister]

Honest question because I have no idea: did the Palestinian organisation(s) in power at the time accept the 1967 borders as the borders of Palestine before they lost said borders?

Well no.

Before 1967 remember the West Bank belonged to Jordan, and Gaza belonged to Egypt.  I believe the PLO had never accepted Israel's right to exist (and remember by 1967 the state of Israel was only 20 years old).  I don't know if they felt that WB and Gaza should also belong to a Palestinian state, but they definitely thought Israel shouldn't exist and instead be Palestine.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Israel has controlled all of that land since 1967. That chart doesn't track control of the West Bank, it tracks housing developments within Israeli territory.

Israel has just annexed land at the beginning of the war.

The land you're talking about has been under Israeli control since 1967.

As I said--Israel has not taken land since 1967, and has in fact given land back since that time.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Jordan also renounced claims to that land formally in 1994.

Besides them, no other state other than Israel has had meaningful control over the territory since the end of the British Mandate.