Israel-Hamas War 2023

[crazy canuck]

Only idiots are speculating that.

If you read

Only idiots are speculating that.

You mean like JR who said he is concerned about the approach of some currently in cabinet?

 

You can go to bed. There are 2.3m people in Gaza Strip, when the war is over there will be around 2.3m people in Gaza Strip.

Well, yeah, apart from the people that were removed, today were seriously injured and oh yeah, all the people who were killed, and we are all the people who would actually return because they are terrified but other than that yeah.

[viper37]

As I said the only solution for Palestine is to have some other 3rd party provide their security while they disarm the terrorists and allow the Palestinians to form a functioning government.

I've been told for more than 20 years here and P*dox that Israel would always refuse such a deal.

In short:
- No contiguous territory for a Palestinian state
- No security deal with a 3rd party
- A Palestinian state that is unable to police itself therefore unable to provide meaningful security guarantees
- Israel is opposed to any right of return, especially if it puts the Jewish population in a minority position, so a one state solution is unthinkable (totally understandable, but I'm not the one who criticizes nationalism )
- Israel thinks the West Bank is needed for its viability
- Israel does not want to dismantle its colonies
- The US will never pressure Israel to stop colonization
- Israel has already won: the government is willing to accept civilian loss of life and the civilians are willing to accept Palestinian loss of life, even on the left because they're scared, due to right wing policies.
- No peace until the remaining Palestinians are expelled.  The agenda has simply been moved up.  Instead of another 20 years, it's gonna take another 2 to clean up Gaza, then they'll shift their attention back to settling the West Bank.

I think it's no wonder the UN and most Western countries have shifted their stance and are asking for a truce.  They don't want a Palestinian refugee problem on their arms and they have just realized this is the plan.  People are slow to understand sometimes.

[viper37]

What might be interesting is temporary eviction, screen through the civilians to see who can be identified as a fighter/terrorist, then return when Israel has squashed Hamas.

Temporary like 1948, or temporary like 1956 or temporary like 1967?

[OttoVonBismarck]

If the plan is to push Gazans out of the strip then why aren't they doing that? Why are they in Gaza City fighting in tunnels? If you want to push Gazans into Egypt the IDF could do so in like 24 hours. Maybe it's because that isn't happening.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Man, these totally made up fake claims of genocide really are shockingly close to the blood libel. There is zero point zero evidence anything like it is happening, but you gleefully repeat and lie about it, carrying water for Hamas to try and delegitimize Israel, to try and insulate Hamas from consequence for murdering 1400 civilians.

What's next guys, we going to talk about how the Jews are killing the Palestinians so they can use their children's blood in their evil Jew rituals? Bake the blood into some of their foul Jew bread? If you're going to blood libel just go ahead and go all in.

[viper37]

If the plan is to push Gazans out of the strip then why aren't they doing that? Why are they in Gaza City fighting in tunnels? If you want to push Gazans into Egypt the IDF could do so in like 24 hours. Maybe it's because that isn't happening.

There are hostages to free, maybe?  There are terrorists to kill? Weapons cache to destroy in the short term?
I'm not doubting the capabilities of the IDF here.  I know, militarily speaking, they could wipe out everything alive, Jewish, Christians, Muslim or non human in a a few days.

But not all IDF soldiers are bloody murderers willing to commit genocide, and not all IDF soldiers are willing to forget about the hostages and the government is not ready to pay the political price for forgetting about them and committing genocide.

So, give it a couple of years.  They'll do their best to rescue the hostages, kill as many Hamas combatants as they can while eliminating the other Palestinians as casualties of war to scare them enough, then try to find the survivors a place, anywhere that is not Gaza.

If you want to bet that there will be 2.3 million Gazans by the end of the war, I would advise against it as you have already lost your bet, as CC pointed out.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I mean the Gazan deaths have not reduced the population below 2.3m, you may not have noticed but CC is talking out of his ass nonstop in this thread. Their pop wasn't 2,308,000.

[viper37]

Man, these totally made up fake claims of genocide really are shockingly close to the blood libel. There is zero point zero evidence anything like it is happening, but you gleefully repeat and lie about it, carrying water for Hamas to try and delegitimize Israel, to try and insulate Hamas from consequence for murdering 1400 civilians.

Genocide?  Where did I talk about genocide?  I talked about ethnic cleansing.  As in removing people.  They're not going to kill 2.3 million people. They're going to kill 20 or 30 thousand people and force most of the civilians to flee into a tiny corner near Egypt.

Hamas killed 1400 civilians.  That should never have happened.  That it did happen is a total failure of this government.  If you have rabid wolves in a cage, you don't leave the fucking door open while your kids are playing next to it.

Hamas are a bloody terrorist group.  They are the sworn enemy of Israel.  They are sworn to destroy Israel.  They made it their holy mission to kill Jews all around the world.  Why on Earth would you leave the border with this group unguarded?  It's criminal negligence and the government officials responsible for deploying troops elsewhere should be prosecuted for this.

As for the Hamas terrorists, even as they were raised in their hatred of Jews, I've read that they were totally drugged to commit their atrocities.  Let's talk about the supposed indefectible support of Hamas in Gaza, m'kay?

Polls show majority of Gazans were against breaking ceasefire


Seems to me, all Israel had to do was to push a little in the right direction to destabilize Hamas instead of the PA.  But since the beginning, they did the opposite...  Again & again & again.  Support the religious nuts instead of the secular movements showing overtures of peace.  Can't get over the mistrust.  I guess the Bible was right about a few things on those Israelites.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Israel has a right to destroy the military rule of Hamas, simple fact. International law says so. Morality says so.

The rest is just the bleating of Hamas apologists. Everyone crying and raging and burning synagogues is just mad Muslims are losing a war to filthy, evil Jews.

[viper37]

I mean the Gazan deaths have not reduced the population below 2.3m, you may not have noticed but CC is talking out of his ass nonstop in this thread. Their pop wasn't 2,308,000.

Is the war over?  I hadn't realized it was over!  Great news!  I shall alert the medias in your name.

You said that the population would not change from pre-war.  I presumed you gave me the right number, 2.3m pre war, 2.3m after war.  I didn't check those numbers.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I did not say it wouldn't change. I said

There are 2.3m people in Gaza Strip, when the war is over there will be around 2.3m people in Gaza Strip.

There will be no "purge" like you are trying to lie about to libel Jews.

[Threviel]

I'm seeing videos from Gaza about civilians turning on Hamas, chasing them away from supplies and even a video of some dude begging the US to come in and erase Hamas.

If they're Israeli propaganda or who's behind them I don't know, but if they reflect some kind of anti-Hamas sentiment from within Gaza they're a bit heartening and hopeful for the future.

[Josquius]

I put my neck on the line to get you off the hook and this is what I get. 

This line exactly fits what DGuller and Otto were saying: you are claiming mainstream news sources are calling the strikes "terror bombing."

Nope. You got it right. I am not quoting anyone and made no claims to be doing so.
Looking at the footage...yeah, that's terror bombing.

I disagree.  There is no burden of proof either way.  No one has demonstrated conclusively that at least one Israeli bomb has landed on a target that is 100% devoid of military value, but that doesn't mean I'm free to assert that every single bomb is landing on a high value military target.  The only reasonable conclusions to reach right now have to be highly qualified, acknowledge the uncertainty, and subject to revision.  You calling it terror bombing is none of those things.  You are expressing certainty.

To claim military significance for the sheer amount of civilian areas Israel have bombed seems unlikely in the extreme. Israel have come up with excuses for some of their attacks; for others all we get is silence.
 I'm far from a lone voice in this calling out Israeli actions.
Absolutely there's no certainty. We shouldn't just grab the Israeli leadership and put them up against the wall.
But a proper thorough war crime investigation should be (and won't be) conducted.

How should they be doing it?  What military capabilities do they have that would still kill terrorists but leave the civilians alone?

As said this goes way beyond my domain. I doubt there's a perfect  100% guaranteed zero civilian casualties option. As mentioned US drone strikes, in theory perfect, still have lots of screw ups.
I suspect however that recognising this Israel has decided in for a penny, in for a pound, and aren't putting in any more than the most token efforts to limit civilian casualties. Why bother with micro-targeting individual targets when they show their face outside when they can just level a city block where they're 60% certain a Hamas leader probably lives.

Its not the disagreement which reaffirms my position. Its the manner of the disagreement.
Not "Terror bombing is over the top language" or anything like that. Its "Don't you dare say anything bad about Israel you Islamic extremist you!"


How can you possibly defend yourself by making up a quote and putting it in quotation marks?  Dude.  I've been reading this thread.  That line is a fabrication.

I didn't make up any quotes.
Putting the summary in "speech marks" rather than as a

quote

makes clear its paraphrasing rather than quoting. The words are obvious exaggeration, hence the purposefully silly phrasing, but the meaning and feeling is intact.
Some people just won't accept that Israel just possibly might be doing something less than good. Hamas have shown themselves as villains (to some they're clearly so just by virtue of being Muslims) so anyone opposing them must therefore be perfect paladins.

[Threviel]

Hamas has hade years and years to build their military structures. They are purposely built under, inside or perhaps next to the most visually harmful civilian targets Hamas can find.

For example: Israel is not hitting a mosque because they have a hunch some Hamas leader is leading children in prayer there, they are hitting that mosque because Hamas has made it into a military target that Israel cannot hit because hitting a mosque is visually bad for Israel.

Every Gaza military structure worth taking out means taking out some civilian target, often forcefully populated by Hamas. They have weapon factories inside hospitals for example. The US does not have magical cruise missiles capable of going through an apartment block to hit the rocket factory under it without damaging the apartment block. Israel has tried with the knocking and by some miracle it actually seems like they still do the knocking thing.

The blame for those civilian targets getting hit lies squarely and singularly on the Palestinian government of Gaza, because it's they that made those civilian constructions into legal military targets.

Now, Israel can be blamed if there is no military value in the things they hit or if they use too much force, but as of yet I have seen no believable evidence of that happening.

[Gups]

The thing that bothered me most was the cutting off of water. It didn't seem to have any obvious military purpose. WIlling to be persuaded otherwise.

As far as the miltary operations are concerned, it's impossible to make any judgement at this stage other tan the obvious fact that you can't attack Hamas without collateral civilian damage.