From the "Black People Arrest Themselves" files

[garbon]

Cambridge is tiny.

Define "tiny".

[Caliga]

I think Yi is a KSG graduate, which means he's either trying to be sarcastic or has an extremely bad memory. 

[The Minsky Moment]

It's no different that the elitist classism Minsky exhibits.

I am just pointing to the reality of life.  If Justice Breyer yells at a cop who enters his Cambridge home, he doesn't get arrested.  There are double standards, whether or not I approve him.  For some reason Gates didn't get the benefit of that double standard.  Maybe it was because this particular cop was very scrupulous, or maybe it was for some other reason.  I am not inclined to believe the former, because the officer's actions as I have already described were not otherwise scrupulous.

I have taken the position of the police before on these boards -- for example in the incident where they shot the guy in the car under the erroneous impression he was armed.  I recognize that it is a high stress profession and that hard decisions sometimes have to made in an instant.  But some 57 year limping professor carping about how "its because I'm black isn't it" and "you don't know who you are dealing with" should not create any issues for an experienced officer.  There was a right way for the officer to handle this and a wrong way.  This officer in this particular place and this particular time let his emotions rule his reason and picked the wrong way.

[Caliga]

The only instance of genuine elitism I recall seeing coming from Minsky was when we had a discussion about wine varietals and he insisted it would only be possible to produce a quality Bordeaux in Bordeaux itself, even if the winery had access to the exact same strains of grape and yeast, identical soil, identical climate, and employed the same fermentation/maturation/bottling process.

[grumbler]

See above.  There are a couple of problems with this.  First of all, Cambridge city cops showed up in the cars.  Second, once he had established that the person in the house was a homewoner, even a loud, obnoxious one, there was nothing for the university police to do, and the university police could not enter a private house without Gates' permission anyway.

Having now read the transcript, it is pretty clear that the "keep the cars coming" was very early, after Gates had shown him a Harvard ID (with no address) but before he showed him the drivers license with address.  At the time he made the comment, he wasn't sure that Gates was actually the owner of the house.  As for having the Cambridge police on the scene, they may have been out of their jurisdiction, but presumably had more experience dealing with Gates and university professors in general.  Their inability to enter the house is irrelevant insofar as I can tell.  Do you raise that point for any specific reason?

I see nothing at all to suggest that.  On the contrary, despite the attempts to make Gates behavior sound more unreasonable through the use of creative adjectives and invective (e.g. "screaming jerk"), the fact is that the actual words that he was quoted by the police as using were quite tame.

You are quick yourself to make assertions without evidence, and to use creative adjectives and invective.  I threw this inpurely to see if you can notice these traits in another's posts even when you cannot see them in your own.  I withdraw these particular comments entirely, since they served my purpose and added nothing to the actual discussion.

I am perfectly willing to concede that Crowley may have over-reacted by arresting Gates even though Gates followed him out of the house shouting invective.  I don't know, though, what the CPD policies were on this kind of thing, so I don't leap to the conclusion that he was being unprofessional  (unlike you).

[grumbler]

Because at the time he was transmitting "additional information" he no longer had any lawful basis for remaining in the house.  He had already established that no crime had been committed or was in the process of being committed and that he was in a private residence without permission.

On what basis do you make this assertion?

The exigent circumstances that had permitted his entry vanished once he established the ID of the homeowner.  Nor was there any other basis for remaining in the house - the mere fact that Gates may have been insulting him is neither a chargable crime nor a basis to remain in a private house without invitation.

Once he had established that Gates did indeed live there (after Gates showed him the drivers license) he did in fact leave.  the situation was over... except that gates followed him out of the house shouting.

At that point, he had only one move to make: depart from the house.  Instead he stuck around and called to send more cars.  Since there was no longer any investigation to conduct, that could only have been to do what he did - escalate the situation and precipitate an improper arrest without cause.

On what basis do you assert that he stuck around in the house?  All the accounts I have seen indicate that he was trying to get out as soon as he could (and that he in fact didn't want to enter the house to begin with, but Gates refused to come out).  You are imputing motive based on events that didn't occur, insofar as I can see. For instance, when did Crowley "call for more cars?"

[The Minsky Moment]

The only instance of genuine elitism I recall seeing coming from Minsky was when we had a discussion about wine varietals and he insisted it would only be possible to produce a quality Bordeaux in Bordeaux itself, even if the winery had access to the exact same strains of grape and yeast, identical soil, identical climate, and employed the same fermentation/maturation/bottling process.

I can't believe I said that.  There is plenty of good cabernet-based wine made in the New World.

What is true is that no one has succeeded in making a decent grand cru ore even premier cru level white Burgundy (chardonnay) outside Burgundy.  But I think it is theoretically possible.

[Caliga]

I can't believe I said that.  There is plenty of good cabernet-based wine made in the New World.

What is true is that no one has succeeded in making a decent grand cru ore even premier cru level white Burgundy (chardonnay) outside Burgundy.  But I think it is theoretically possible.

Perhaps it was all a big misunderstanding.  Let's go to the White House and drink some beer with Obama, thereby solving all problems in the world of viniculture.

[KRonn]

I can't believe I said that.  There is plenty of good cabernet-based wine made in the New World.

What is true is that no one has succeeded in making a decent grand cru ore even premier cru level white Burgundy (chardonnay) outside Burgundy.  But I think it is theoretically possible.

Perhaps it was all a big misunderstanding.  Let's go to the White House and drink some beer with Obama, thereby solving all problems in the world of viniculture.

Um, that would be to have some wine, cabernet perhaps, or other.   

[Caliga]

Niggas don't drink wine 

[The Minsky Moment]

Having now read the transcript, it is pretty clear that the "keep the cars coming" was very early, after Gates had shown him a Harvard ID (with no address) but before he showed him the drivers license with address.  At the time he made the comment, he wasn't sure that Gates was actually the owner of the house.  As for having the Cambridge police on the scene, they may have been out of their jurisdiction, but presumably had more experience dealing with Gates and university professors in general.

There is nothing in the transcribed audio dispatch that indicates anything about a driver's license or when the officer saw it.   Gates claims that he did show the driver's license at the same time he gave his Harvard ID.  The police report and audio transcripts are entirely silent on this issue.  Crowley has not to my knowledge contended that Gates did not provide the license and his incident report doesn't say either way.

There are three possibilities here:
1) Gates is telling the truth and gave both IDs.  The incident report omitted this fact by accident.

2) Gates is telling the truth and gave IDs.  The incident report omitted this fact because Officer Crowley saw the Harvard ID first and that was sufficient confirmation that Gates was who he claimed to be and never looked at the license.

3)  Gates is not telling the truth and the officer only saw that Harvard ID, but concluded that it was sufficient confirmation. (not surprising b/c even if Crowley hadn't confirmed the name of the known resident, the house is university housing).

It could be any of those three, but whichever one applies, there is no excuse to seek to "keep the cars coming."

Also - metioning the Harvard police was simply your error on the misunderstanding that the "cars" he asked to come were university police.  it is clear from the audio dispatch that was not the case.

II am perfectly willing to concede that Crowley may have over-reacted by arresting Gates even though Gates followed him out of the house shouting invective.  I don't know, though, what the CPD policies were on this kind of thing, so I don't leap to the conclusion that he was being unprofessional  (unlike you).

I assume the CPD policy complies with Massachusetts law and Mass constitutional standards for police conduct.  They may be wrong, but it is the basis for my leap.

[Fate]

Niggas don't drink wine 

That's a common misconception. Put it in some cardboard and we're good to go.

[Caliga]

 

Actually there was this one black ex-employee of mine who enjoyed drinking wine.  She also enjoyed filing nuisance racial discrimination complaints with the EEOC.  So maybe it's just that sane African-Americans don't drink wine.

They sure do like grape soda though 

[Jos Theelen]

No, I am talking about walking people.

I never been asked for identification when just walking about.

It was one of the examples a high ranked police officer gave me, when we talked about racism and discrimination at the police (when I was councilor in my home town). He and others agreed there was some racism at the police, but never very serious cases. Just like this Gates case. Overblown, mainly because the media need something to write and report about.

PS: is the police in your country allowed to ask for identification, without any immediate reason?

[MadImmortalMan]

The only instance of genuine elitism I recall seeing coming from Minsky was when we had a discussion about wine varietals and he insisted it would only be possible to produce a quality Bordeaux in Bordeaux itself, even if the winery had access to the exact same strains of grape and yeast, identical soil, identical climate, and employed the same fermentation/maturation/bottling process.

I can't believe I said that.  There is plenty of good cabernet-based wine made in the New World.

What is true is that no one has succeeded in making a decent grand cru ore even premier cru level white Burgundy (chardonnay) outside Burgundy.  But I think it is theoretically possible.

I saw Bottle Shock. You can't fool me.