Do you wear a mask in public?

[Tamas]

Just through my first mask wearing. Wasn't a big deal overall, largely managed to avoid fogging my glasses, too.

But clearly people have the wrong idea and think masks are for their own safety. I was on this village mini high street, with a handful of people out and about shop-browsing and going into eateries. The one person I saw with a mask apart from myself was a guy well into his 70s, who also happened to be the oldest person around. So clearly people make a call on whether they consider themselves in danger and wear mask accordingly.

So yeah, it should just be made mandatory. 

[Liep]

They just updated the mask recommendations, now it's recommended to wear a mask if you're going to a corona test, not at other times.

[merithyn]

I guess no Swede is ever in a building with anyone else?

As I said, I don't know the particulars. I just trust the guys spending their lives stopping diseases rather than politicians trying to not look bad or journalists trying to create controversy.

I've having a hard time gauging what your scientists are saying as opposed to your politicians based on your posts.

Are you saying that your scientists are suggesting that masks are useless and do not help stop the spread of this virus?

[Sheilbh]

I've having a hard time gauging what your scientists are saying as opposed to your politicians based on your posts.

Are you saying that your scientists are suggesting that masks are useless and do not help stop the spread of this virus?

Yep. They've slightly softened here and masks are required in some circumstances, but this tweet still sums up the general advice:

Prof Jonathan Van-Tam says he knows "face masks remain a vexed issue".

He says that while "we've kept this under very careful and repetitive scientific review we do remain convinced that there just isn't the evidence base to support general mass wearing use by the public".

The papers for the scientific advisers on this are here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/890039/s0117-rapid-review-face-masks-070420-sage24.pdf
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/890043/S0127-nervtag-face-mask-use-in-the-community-130420-sage25.pdf
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/890233/s0150-wearing-facemasks-community-setting-options-evidence-160420-sage26.pdf
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/888572/4c._200420_SPI-B_return_to_SAGE_CMO_on_facemasks_FINAL_S0208.pdf
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/893227/S0206_DELVE_report_on_Face_Masks_for_the_General_Public.pdf

Now I'm a mask truther so I think this is nonsense. But the scientists' advice in the UK is still fairly sceptical of masks (I have friends who work in the NHS who think it's nonsense for the general public to wear masks). It doesn't even seem to be something scientists are actually pushing for if they disagree with it, the focus of disagreement here has been the recommended distance for social distancing and re-openings.

[Tamas]

Which doesn't make sense to me. If the extent of social distancing matters so much, why are masks useless?

Surely whatever risk of infection there is from encountering a stranger at X centimeters of distance, the risk is less if the stranger is wearing a mask? And seeing how the entire world economy let alone countless lives depend on containing this crap, then even a statistically small benefit still worth the trouble?

I think what they do is something like "ok if everyone wears masks 100% of time, that reduces infection levels 1%. What a ridiculous comparative rate!"

[Sheilbh]

In fairness I think the WHO position is still that there's not enough evidence to support encouraging general mask wearing.

But I'm just very dubious of it.

[merithyn]

In fairness I think the WHO position is still that there's not enough evidence to support encouraging general mask wearing.

But I'm just very dubious of it.

The WHO changed their stance at the beginning of June.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200608/who-changes-stance-says-public-should-wear-masks

June 8, 2020 -- The World Health Organization has changed its stance on wearing face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic.People over 60 and people with underlying medical conditions should wear a medical-grade mask when they're in public and cannot socially distance, the WHO said. The general public should wear a three-layer fabric mask in those situations.

The WHO also updated their advice for medical workers, saying all of them should always wear a medical mask while in clinical areas, not just people working with COVID-19 patients.

The organization had previously said there wasn't enough medical evidence to support members of the public wearing a mask, unless they were sick or around people with the coronavirus. The widespread wearing of masks might lead to a mask shortage for medical workers and create a false sense of security in the public, WHO officials had said.

WHO Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, speaking Friday during a media briefing in Geneva, said WHO's stance was based on new research.

"In areas with widespread transmission, the WHO advises medical masks for all people working in clinical areas of a health facility, not only workers dealing with patients with COVID-19," Tedros said, according to CNN.

"Second, in areas with community transmission, we advise that people aged 60 years or over, or those with underlying conditions, should wear a medical mask in situations where physical distancing is not possible," Tedros said.

Third, he said, "WHO advises that governments should encourage the general public to wear masks where there is widespread transmission and physical distancing is difficult, such as on public transport, in shops or in other confined or crowded environments."

The WHO guidance says people can make their own three-layer masks by using an inner layer of an absorbent material, such as cotton or cotton blends; a middle layer made of a non-woven material polypropylene or cotton to enhance filtration of droplets; and an outer layer of a non-absorbent material such polypropylene, polyester, or their blends. Stretchy, porous materials should be avoided.

The WHO guidance says masks should only be worn by one person and should be changed if soiled or wet. Masks should be washed at high temperatures or, if hot water is not available, boiled for one minute.

Wearing masks isn't enough to protect a person from the virus, the WHO said.

"The use of a mask alone is insufficient to provide an adequate level of protection or source control, and other personal and community level measures should also be adopted to suppress transmission of respiratory viruses," the WHO said.

[Sheilbh]

So I think that is where we are - masks are required (public transport) or encouraged (shops) where distancing is difficult. But not generally whenever you're outside.

I wonder if that first paragraph is part of it:

June 8, 2020 -- The World Health Organization has changed its stance on wearing face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic. People over 60 and people with underlying medical conditions should wear a medical-grade mask when they're in public and cannot socially distance, the WHO said. The general public should wear a three-layer fabric mask in those situations.

That is actually you should be socially distancing, if you can't you should wear a mask but that isn't a substitute for social distancing. I wonder if part of the reason scientists advising the government here won't recommend masks is because they worry it would "dilute" the message around social distancing or that people would take riskier decisions if they've got a mask on.

Again, I think that's nonsense. I think actually seeing masks around encourages social distancing because they're a sort of visible reminder.

[merithyn]

That's been my experience. It reminds people to back up, or that I am a potential risk to them. At least the ones who understand that my wearing a mask is supposed to be to protect them. (There are, unfortunately, precious few who seem to grasp that concept, though.  )

[Tamas]

That's been my experience. It reminds people to back up, or that I am a potential risk to them. At least the ones who understand that my wearing a mask is supposed to be to protect them. (There are, unfortunately, precious few who seem to grasp that concept, though.  )

I am thinking I'll wear one more often just to encourage people to stay the heck away. I have experienced a decidedly relaxed attitude toward social distancing the last couple of weeks. Worst one was probably yesterday when I was unpacking the back of my car, these two women walked past on the sidewalk next to me, took precisely zero effort not to walk about 15 centimeters from me, and I also got to smell their cigarettes, as a friendly confirmation that I was in fact firmly standing in the middle of their lung exhalements. 

[derspiess]

I am slowly getting more comfortable with wearing a face covering in public while inside a building.  I decided to go with a gaiter because it looks less dorky than a mask.  I still feel like I'm fixin' to rob a place when I throw it on after getting out of the car, though

[Threviel]

I guess no Swede is ever in a building with anyone else?

As I said, I don't know the particulars. I just trust the guys spending their lives stopping diseases rather than politicians trying to not look bad or journalists trying to create controversy.

I've having a hard time gauging what your scientists are saying as opposed to your politicians based on your posts.

Are you saying that your scientists are suggesting that masks are useless and do not help stop the spread of this virus?

The politicians that matter follow what Swedish CDC says. There is some rumbling from the opposition.

I am saying that the scientists responsible for Sweden is not recommending mandatory, or even non-mandatory mask usage for regular Swedes doing regular stuff in Sweden.

[DGuller]

I went shopping during lunch today, and saw a confrontation unfold.  One customer wasn't wearing a mask as required and was agitated, explaining why he didn't have to wear one.  He was surrounded by a store manager and half a dozen store employees, who were steering customers away from the confrontation.  I guess eventually he left the store without police needing to be called.  Good think at least some stores enforce the rules around here.

[Admiral Yi]

Did you overhear his rationale?

[merithyn]

Did you overhear his rationale?

Is there ever a good one?