Elon Musk: Always A Douche

[Admiral Yi]

A false dichotomy.
There isn't a finite amount of freedom to go round.
Treating black people, gay people etc.... With decency doesn't mean you have to start being a dick to straight white guys.

Letting trans women compete with cis women in sports means you have to start being a dick to the cis women that would prefer not to compete with them.

[Josquius]

A false dichotomy.
There isn't a finite amount of freedom to go round.
Treating black people, gay people etc.... With decency doesn't mean you have to start being a dick to straight white guys.

Letting trans women compete with cis women in sports means you have to start being a dick to the cis women that would prefer not to compete with them.

I somehow guessed you'd go onto this one.
Something which is really just absolutely not an issue in any way for more than a fraction of a percent of people. Something which sports governing bodies have been grappling with for the better part of a century without the public throwing a fit.

But yet, since its a complex issue which on the surface can have a simple answer and is one of the few examples in the history of the universe where it could be twisted that  minority rights might hurt the majority, the loony right has decided to politicise and turn into a wedge which it can use to push back minority rights in other  ways.

And please don't hide behind the "it's about women's rights" rhetoric. I know you're smarter than that. Time and again research shows women tend to be far more chill about trans women being allowed to get on with their lives than men are.

[Admiral Yi]

Could be twisted?  Anything could be twisted.  It's either a reasonable moral perspective or it's not.

If you show me data that says a majority of cis women who compete in sports are in favor of trans participation, I'll say it's a done deal.  Otherwise not.

[Berkut]

Trump what?

Other people's rights and privileges.

A false dichotomy.
There isn't a finite amount of freedom to go round.
Treating black people, gay people etc.... With decency doesn't mean you have to start being a dick to straight white guys.

The practical reality is that the effort to even the playing field does mean that you can (and probably ought to) do some things that will be seen as being a dick to straight white guys.

Or whatever group it is that you are NOT giving preferential treatment towards.

Example: Asian Americans are suing universities because they are being selected against their merits in order to create space for other minorities.

Also - language like "straight white guys" is not useful. It implies that the people you are arguing with are not doing so from principle, but rather to protect their own privilege. And while plenty of push back against equality comes from precisely that, it isn't all, and assuming that those you are arguing with are coming from that perspective is a waste of time. Either it isn't true, in which case you are the asshole for assuming they have shitty motives, or it IS true, in which case they are not being rational so you might as well stop talking to them.

[Jacob]

Seems to me that the right is pushing against minority rights in a whole bunch of areas that don't have anything to do with transwomen in sport.

[Josquius]

Could be twisted?  Anything could be twisted.  It's either a reasonable moral perspective or it's not.

Not really. Little in life is such a binary.
In this case science is the important factor and it doesn't care about anyones feelings.
Sex isn't a binary though culturally we treat it as one and defining just who lands on which side in a situation where there's a statistical advantage in pushing the boundary is something that has long been a struggle for sports governing bodies.

If you show me data that says a majority of cis women who compete in sports are in favor of trans participation, I'll say it's a done deal.  Otherwise not.

As Jacob says trans women in sports isn't the only area the attack is taking place. Really this is just an area they're using as it is so complicated and outside of most people's interest so easy to pretend it's a simple issue with only two extreme answers possible.

[Razgovory]

Seems to me that the right is pushing against minority rights in a whole bunch of areas that don't have anything to do with transwomen in sport.

True, but that is the issue that gains the most traction with the public.

[Admiral Yi]

As Jacob says trans women in sports isn't the only area the attack is taking place. Really this is just an area they're using as it is so complicated and outside of most people's interest so easy to pretend it's a simple issue with only two extreme answers possible.

What the right is attacking is not relevant to our discussion.  They have removed themselves from the debate by their wackiness.

Fine, if you say it's more complex than two extreme answers, that suggests to me you think *some* trans women should not be allowed to compete.  I am willing to hear your argument about which should be allowed and which should not.

You mentioned science being important, and the science is saying people who have gone through puberty as a male, regardless of the hormone blockers they might take after puberty, have a significant advantage in sports.

[Berkut]

Well, you have to appreciate that they have come around to the despised Sam Harris position that the science and data matters, and there is more talk about beyond "trans-women are women full stop and there is nothing to discuss!"

It's weird to see how now there is this pretend idea that that was their position all along...?

"It's complicated, and lets let the scientists and controlling bodies within the sports figure it out!" is exactly what should have been the answer all along.

[Josquius]

Well, you have to appreciate that they have come around to the despised Sam Harris position that the science and data matters, and there is more talk about beyond "trans-women are women full stop and there is nothing to discuss!"

It's weird to see how now there is this pretend idea that that was their position all along...?

It was.
Thats why this is such an effective item for right wing identity politics. They spin that there is only two possible full on nuclear answers of all trans people completely banned from women's sports or its a complete free for all and Rafael Nadal can show up the day of the women's Wimbledon final say "Oh, I'm Rafaela today. I need to buy a new Ferrari see.".
Outside of the anti-woke strawman NOBODY* wants it to be a complete free for all.

As I've said a bunch of times however and nobody ever wants to pay attention to the fact that trans women aren't even the important part of it if you're looking at it in good faith, sports authorities have been grappling with defining women for the better part of a century.

"It's complicated, and lets let the scientists and controlling bodies within the sports figure it out!" is exactly what should have been the answer all along.

Which it had been.
But in recent years the anti-woke cult have seen an opportunity to profit by pushing in their feelings instead. They've discovered this is a really useful issue where they get to present the reasonable "Just let people be themselves and get on with their life" view as the irrational crazy one and scream gotcha.


*in the world today you'll find SOMEBODY who believes anything. Non-literal nobody.

As Jacob says trans women in sports isn't the only area the attack is taking place. Really this is just an area they're using as it is so complicated and outside of most people's interest so easy to pretend it's a simple issue with only two extreme answers possible.

What the right is attacking is not relevant to our discussion.  They have removed themselves from the debate by their wackiness.

Fine, if you say it's more complex than two extreme answers, that suggests to me you think *some* trans women should not be allowed to compete.  I am willing to hear your argument about which should be allowed and which should not.

You mentioned science being important, and the science is saying people who have gone through puberty as a male, regardless of the hormone blockers they might take after puberty, have a significant advantage in sports.

Science says otherwise.

I'm not going to pretend to have more knowledge on this topic than people who have devoted their life to it. It is worth noting however that the definition keeps shifting as they're basically trying to define a multiple variable "Analogue" thing according to a strict digital binary.

[Admiral Yi]

Not the science I've been reading.

So you seem to be saying that your non-extreme, non-endpoint solution is to allow all trans women to compete but block obvious cis men who are faking. 

[Josquius]

Not the science I've been reading.

You haven't seen the most well known study on this topic?
https://blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/2021/01/22/testosterone-and-transgender-athletic-performance-finding-a-path-for-inclusion-for-transgender-athletes/

So you seem to be saying that your non-extreme, non-endpoint solution is to allow all trans women to compete but block obvious cis men who are faking. 

That's the ideal world outcome. Probably not possible in every situation with current technology however.

[Berkut]

Well, you have to appreciate that they have come around to the despised Sam Harris position that the science and data matters, and there is more talk about beyond "trans-women are women full stop and there is nothing to discuss!"

It's weird to see how now there is this pretend idea that that was their position all along...?

It was.
Thats why this is such an effective item for right wing identity politics. They spin that there is only two possible full on nuclear answers of all trans people completely banned from women's sports or its a complete free for all and Rafael Nadal can show up the day of the women's Wimbledon final say "Oh, I'm Rafaela today. I need to buy a new Ferrari see.".
Outside of the anti-woke strawman NOBODY* wants it to be a complete free for all.

I don't think that is the case at all. 

Ignoring the right wing bullshit, because they are all morons on this stuff.

But the stance on the far left WAS in fact that if you were a trans woman, you should be allowed to compete. Full stop.

There would be no debate with Harris or myself for that matter if the stance was that its complicated, and we should let science and data and governing bodies figure it out - but that means it is likely that there will in fact be trans women who are not allowed to compete in some sports at some levels.

I was called a bigot for that position, and Harris was identified as being anti-LBTQ for it.

[Admiral Yi]

You haven't seen the most well known study on this topic?
https://blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/2021/01/22/testosterone-and-transgender-athletic-performance-finding-a-path-for-inclusion-for-transgender-athletes/

I had not.  Eye opening.  I will have to square that with the other things I've been reading, but until I do I will have to put my lobbying on this issue on hold.

That's the ideal world outcome. Probably not possible in every situation with current technology however.

FYI Squeeze, not many people are going to see this as a particularly nuanced, subtle solution that threads its way between two extremes.

[OttoVonBismarck]

The trannies in women's sports thing is a pretty bad example because it perfectly highlights how the right is good at making you upset about things that affect such a small portion of society it is almost mind-boggling.

Transgender people participating in sports has no easy, fair answer. That means whatever answer you go with is going to be a "best case scenario" from a list of options none of which is great. The actual sports organizations that run international sport have been gradually building out things for this, based on testosterone levels, how long a person has been on hormone treatments etc. Lia Thomas may demonstrate that those protocols (which the NCAA essentially copied from America's governing body that regulates American Olympic Swimming) still don't quite get it right. It could be the right answer is, given you only get 4 years of eligibility, you just pass a rule in NCAA swimming that if anyone has ever competed as a male, that is the only division of the sport they can compete in.

At the High School level, it's much less serious an issue--the stakes are lower and it is quite rare for people to be undergoing hormone treatments at that age (although it is becoming more common.) The Republican Governor of Utah vetoed a bill aimed at transgender kids in part because he said it would affect like 3 kids in the entire State of Utah. His point was this was not a sweeping issue, and laws that seem almost cruel in their intent, aimed at three kids who are probably some flavor of mentally unhealthy and going through identity-shattering emotional/psychological issues related to gender dysphoria, maybe isn't what we need to do as a society--even if Sam Harris and Tucker Carlson get Yi and Berkut's blood pressure up about it.