What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Valmy]

In 1862 it was illegal to not be in the Confederate Army. Almost 40% of the Confederate Army were conscripted. 18% of the Federal Army was.

[Admiral Yi]

In my mind there's a huge moral difference between a war of secession and a war of overthrow.  Unless other arguments are introduced, people should be free to disassociate from a polity.  Irish, Catalans, you should be able to walk away.

[grumbler]

In my mind there's a huge moral difference between a war of secession and a war of overthrow.  Unless other arguments are introduced, people should be free to disassociate from a polity.  Irish, Catalans, you should be able to walk away.

Freemen?  Jack Ruby?  You really think that they should be able to just walk away?

I think that any polity should be able to walk away from the larger polity with the agreement of that larger polity.  Without that agreement, the breakaway polity should be obliged to win a war of secession.

[The Brain]

It should be settled by an old-fashioned jerk-off.

[Berkut]

In my mind there's a huge moral difference between a war of secession and a war of overthrow.  Unless other arguments are introduced, people should be free to disassociate from a polity.  Irish, Catalans, you should be able to walk away.

Freemen?  Jack Ruby?  You really think that they should be able to just walk away?

I think that any polity should be able to walk away from the larger polity with the agreement of that larger polity.  Without that agreement, the breakaway polity should be obliged to win a war of secession.

I think it depends on the circumstances.

I don't think winning a war gives one actual moral standing. I don't think the Sudetenland Germans, for example, had moral standing to destroy Czechoslovakia just because they had Germany next door willing to change the polity by force and hence can "win" the ensuing conflict. Or the ethnic Russians in the Ukraine, for that matter.

I don't think a bunch of Russians living in Lithuania will be right to break off their polity with Lithuania as long as they "win" the ensuing war.

I think there is a legitimate case to be made when the circumstances are such that the group that thinks they are being disadvantaged by their association can credibly show that they cannot address their grievances within the greater polity, and those grievances have actual merit, and the proposed solution would demonstrably be superior for everyone involved (including those who will get dragged along like it or not).

That means that the South auto loses on all counts. They had a perfectly fair chance (even more then fair, in fact) to make their voices heard within the United States polity, their greivance had no actual merit, and the proposed solution would be WORSE in the definitionall worst possible way for many of the people actually involved - namely the slaves.

I am still just astounded at viper making the argument that "the people" in the South broadly supported slavery. What possible fucked up world view do you have to live in to forget that the people living in the South at that time including 4 million enslaved human beings?

[HVC]

Viper, what's the cut off off for righteous unilateral decisions about self determination? Montreal has little in common with Quebec city, let alone a the Quebec boonies. can it split off and create its own city state a la Singapore?

[Josquius]

Anywhere has the right to secede.
Though this has to be done on the basis of the secession itself being the goal.
Doing it for cheap reasons like wanting to be a tax haven or keep enslaving people where the independence is purely a means to an end - not valid.

[The Minsky Moment]

Is he still living illegally at Mar e Largo?  That story seems to have died.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20469997-jcr_memo_re_mar-a-lago

He's AOK

[grumbler]

Anywhere has the right to secede.
Though this has to be done on the basis of the secession itself being the goal.
Doing it for cheap reasons like wanting to be a tax haven or keep enslaving people where the independence is purely a means to an end - not valid.

  So now all we need is to have mindreaders who can read the minds of everyone who proposes secession to determine what their actual goals are.

Anywhere has the power to secede.  Whether secession is successful depends on the circumstances, including the outcome of any wars that result.

The argument that I can seceded and take your property with me if my motives are pure enough is madness.  Anyone should have the right to leave a country that they feel oppressed in, but they shouldn't be able to take anyone else's property with them.

[Josquius]

"Power to secede". Jesus.

And fuck your property. Just because you have a house in Scotland and don't think Scotland should be independent doesn't mean they have to stop if they have a vote and independence is what they decide.
If it happens it's still your house. It's just not in the UK anymore.

[Razgovory]

Does geography have rights in the UK?

[Duque de Bragança]

Does geography have rights in the UK?

Same as grammar teaching in non-public schools? 

[Razgovory]

Does geography have rights in the UK?

Same as grammar teaching in non-public schools? 

[grumbler]

Same as grammar teaching in non-public schools? 

Argle bargle gargle?

Your turn.   Gibberish contests are fun!  Thanks for starting this.

[grumbler]

"Power to secede". Jesus.

I guess your education never covered the differences between rights and powers. Don't worry.  That's hardly the most obvious gap in your education.

And fuck your property. Just because you have a house in Scotland and don't think Scotland should be independent doesn't mean they have to stop if they have a vote and independence is what they decide.
If it happens it's still your house. It's just not in the UK anymore.

I notice how it is always "they" who act in your little hypotheticals.

It's not a matter of houses in Scotland in any case.  It's a matter of all of the land owned by the people collectively that selfish "patriots" want to rip off without negotiations.  Little groups of people have no right to steal what belongs to the collective.  I'm surprised that someone who claims to be a socialist doesn't understand that concept.  That's a smaller gap in your education than the one between rights and powers, though.