What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[viper37]

No, he shouldn't have been hanged, I agree.  Making martyrs out of Lee, Davis, etc. would have been a terrible decision.

So now people are making martyrs out of their statues.

Well, there are statues to hanged people everywhere in the world.

[Razgovory]

You definitely got me all wrong.

If I was in the American colonies, say New York, during the Rebellion, I am sure I would have supported that rebellion and been proud to call myself a traitor to a regime that did not deserve my loyalty. Still a traitor though.

And I had lived in the South in the early 1860s, I would (barring some very fundamental difference in my basic character) absolutely NOT have called myself a traitor, and would not have supported the rebellion against the legal authority of the federal government.

The details matter. I don't see any problem with rebellion if the reasons for rebellion are just and warrant the expected cost. I also don't see a problem with noting that people who are rebels are, mostly, traitors to whatever it is they are rebelling against.

Honestly, I would have probably been too cowardly and confused to pick a side in the Revolution.  The American Civil war on the other hand, I know exactly where I would stand.  That is much easier to deal with.  I doubt I could fight anyone, but I could be Raz of the Invalid Corps!

[Caliga]

It was tearing him apart, Lisa!!!!11

[OttoVonBismarck]

Point of Fact: Lee was of the planter class but not a particularly wealthy family of that class. His father was famous and of decent birth but never particularly wealthy for a member of the upper class; his father being "Light-Horse Harry" Lee of American Revolution fame. Light-Horse squandered much of his reputation in the last 15 or so years of his life due to indebtedness and eventually he moved to the Caribbean to live out his final days. He was at one point in his life a Governor of Virginia, though. Like father like son, Harry Lee married a woman from a much wealthier family--Ann Carter of the famous "Carter" family of Virginia planters, descended from Robert "King" Carter--one of the wealthiest men in the colonies in the late 17th and early 18th centuries. Unlike Lee's wife (Mary Custis) Ann didn't bring a vast share of her family fortune to the marriage; but at her death it was reported by Robert's brother that he had inherited at least "a few families of slaves." So Robert had owned a number of slaves since his early adulthood, I'm not sure if he sold them off over time or what, but I think he owned very few at the time he had to take over managing the dowager estate (with some 200+ slaves) of his father in law in the late 1850s.

[Zanza]

So to remember 9/11, Trump neither goes to NYC with Biden, Obama, and Clinton. Nor to the United 93 site with Bush and Cheney. Instead he is commenting a boxing fight in LA... just when I thought he cannot surprise me anymore...   

[Maladict]

He was there.... to talk about his 2024 presidency run and make Covid jokes.

Former President Donald Trump commemorated the 20th anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks by visiting a fire station and police precinct in New York, where he criticized his successor for the way he pulled out of Afghanistan last month.

Trump skipped joining President Joe Biden and other past presidents at official 9/11 memorial ceremonies Saturday at the World Trade Center and in Shanksville, Pennsylvania.

Instead, he traveled several blocks from his Trump Tower building in Manhattan to the 17th police precinct and the neighboring fire station. Speaking to officers, Trump criticized the withdrawal from Afghanistan and expressed surprise about why it hadn't come up in other 9/11 memorial speeches. "It was gross incompetence," he said of the exit.

Trump was asked by the officers whether he plans to launch a comeback run for the White House in 2024 -- or for mayor of New York. He said it was an easy decision that would make them happy.

"If I catch COVID it's because of you," Trump said as he posed for photos with police officers.

[Admiral Yi]

Is he still living illegally at Mar e Largo?  That story seems to have died.

[Sheilbh]

It's actually Hollywood, Florida - at the Seminole Hard Rock Hotel and Casino - which somehow feels even more appropriate

[Eddie Teach]

Evander Holyfield isn't retired? 

[viper37]

You definitely got me all wrong.

If I was in the American colonies, say New York, during the Rebellion, I am sure I would have supported that rebellion and been proud to call myself a traitor to a regime that did not deserve my loyalty. Still a traitor though.

And I had lived in the South in the early 1860s, I would (barring some very fundamental difference in my basic character) absolutely NOT have called myself a traitor, and would not have supported the rebellion against the legal authority of the federal government.

The details matter. I don't see any problem with rebellion if the reasons for rebellion are just and warrant the expected cost. I also don't see a problem with noting that people who are rebels are, mostly, traitors to whatever it is they are rebelling against.

Lots of people in the South were lukewarm about slavery.  Yet they served in the Confederate army.

When you are raised in a certain system, you tend to view things normally.  When Union officers were asked if they'd stay in the Union and fight their own State, their own family, if the position were reversed, most of them stated they'd leave the Union army too.

Rigth or wrong, your duty is to your nation, your country.  Democracy has spoken, simple.  These people viewed the North through the same eye as the Americans of 1776 viewed an unjust and unfair government threatening their way of life.

[grumbler]

Democracy had spoken, and Abraham Lincoln had been elected.  Strange that viper would be defending the Trumpesque confederate move to declare that any election they didn't win was fraudulent.  I thought he claimed that he didn't like Trump or his tactics.

[HVC]

Vipers a separatist at heart. He sympathizes regardless of the cause.

[Berkut]

You definitely got me all wrong.

If I was in the American colonies, say New York, during the Rebellion, I am sure I would have supported that rebellion and been proud to call myself a traitor to a regime that did not deserve my loyalty. Still a traitor though.

And I had lived in the South in the early 1860s, I would (barring some very fundamental difference in my basic character) absolutely NOT have called myself a traitor, and would not have supported the rebellion against the legal authority of the federal government.

The details matter. I don't see any problem with rebellion if the reasons for rebellion are just and warrant the expected cost. I also don't see a problem with noting that people who are rebels are, mostly, traitors to whatever it is they are rebelling against.

Lots of people in the South were lukewarm about slavery.  Yet they served in the Confederate army.

When you are raised in a certain system, you tend to view things normally.  When Union officers were asked if they'd stay in the Union and fight their own State, their own family, if the position were reversed, most of them stated they'd leave the Union army too.

Rigth or wrong, your duty is to your nation, your country.  Democracy has spoken, simple.  These people viewed the North through the same eye as the Americans of 1776 viewed an unjust and unfair government threatening their way of life.

"Lots of people in the South were lukewarm about slavery"

Like the slaves? Were they lukewarm about it? Or do they not count as "people" in your analysis?

Are you going to trot out a nice story for us about all the slaves who fought for the CSA?

And seriously - democracy had spoken?

Bullshit. Democracy had NOT spoken. There was not vote of everyone involved in the decision. I am quite confident that had there been "democracy" in action in the South, the 4 million slaves would have voted "Yeah, NO THANKS ON THAT ONE!"

The fact that you would defend the secession of the south on the basis of "democracy" is fucking abhorrent. A vote among the slaveowners on whether they should be allowed to expand slavery that specifically EXCLUDES the slaves from a say in that vote is not fucking "democracy".


Jesus, this is just grotesque. Democracy. Someone actually defending the Confederacy on the basis of "democracy"!

[Razgovory]

You definitely got me all wrong.

If I was in the American colonies, say New York, during the Rebellion, I am sure I would have supported that rebellion and been proud to call myself a traitor to a regime that did not deserve my loyalty. Still a traitor though.

And I had lived in the South in the early 1860s, I would (barring some very fundamental difference in my basic character) absolutely NOT have called myself a traitor, and would not have supported the rebellion against the legal authority of the federal government.

The details matter. I don't see any problem with rebellion if the reasons for rebellion are just and warrant the expected cost. I also don't see a problem with noting that people who are rebels are, mostly, traitors to whatever it is they are rebelling against.

Lots of people in the South were lukewarm about slavery.  Yet they served in the Confederate army.

When you are raised in a certain system, you tend to view things normally.  When Union officers were asked if they'd stay in the Union and fight their own State, their own family, if the position were reversed, most of them stated they'd leave the Union army too.

Rigth or wrong, your duty is to your nation, your country.  Democracy has spoken, simple.  These people viewed the North through the same eye as the Americans of 1776 viewed an unjust and unfair government threatening their way of life.

Are you just making stuff up now?  Many people served in the Confederate Army for the same reason that people served in the Red Army and the Wehrmacht:  You could get hung if you didn't serve. Where did you get this this:

"When Union officers were asked if they'd stay in the Union and fight their own State, their own family, if the position were reversed, most of them stated they'd leave the Union army too."

Many people did refused to serve in the Confederate Army and took up arms against it.  The Confederacy never controlled all the territory it claimed.  Large areas were effectively in rebellion against the Rebels.  That's why there are two Virginias today.  In areas that did not have many slaves tended to oppose the Confederacy.  Violently.  The Confederacy only had strong support in areas where slaves were a major factor in the economy.

[Berkut]

I am never going to get over the idea of someone making the argument for the legitimacy of a slaveholding state based on *democracy* when its existence is based fundamentally on the question of slavery!