What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Admiral Yi]

Again, the issue you aren't addressing is that it is difficult to attribute medical tourism from Canada to the US solely or even primarily to different health insurance regimes in the two countries. Even if the systems were identical, such medical tourism would still occur.

Disagree, insofar as the supply of health care is a function to some extent of the reimbursement rate, which is a function of the insurance system.

[HVC]

Damn Malthus and I have some kind of mental connection

No! you and BB are doppelgangers. that's established languish tradition and will not be changed.

[Barrister]

Damn Malthus and I have some kind of mental connection

No! you and BB are doppelgangers. that's established languish tradition and will not be changed.

Ours is but a physical similarity.  On most issues we are polar opposites: I'm conservative he's liberal, I'm an anglophile while he's a francophile, I support the mighty Winnipeg Jets while he pulls for some dinky operation known as the University of Texas...

[Malthus]

I only have anecdotal evidence that the handful of people who have gone to the US for medical treatment cited waiting lists as the reason.  A judge for example said it would have taken 6-12 months for his (hip? I can't quite remember), but he was in a lot of discomfort so he went to the US.

I'm not saying the US has the superior system, but it does have some advantages is all.

That is certainly an advantage. One that could be imported, by allowing more private payment-for-service options here in Canada.

Contrary to the propaganda on both sides, pay-for-services does in fact exist in the Canadian system - it just tends to be a piecemeal, ad-hoc affair.

Though the thing is, allowing for a full pay-for-service, two-tier system and you will *still* see Canadians going to the US - because they have better specialists and bigger, better equipped centers.

[Valmy]

Again, the issue you aren't addressing is that it is difficult to attribute medical tourism from Canada to the US solely or even primarily to different health insurance regimes in the two countries. Even if the systems were identical, such medical tourism would still occur.

Disagree, insofar as the supply of health care is a function to some extent of the reimbursement rate, which is a function of the insurance system.

Well let's see...according to Wiki we had between 60K and 85K medical tourists traveling here and 750,000 Americans going abroad. Sounds like our insurance system has problems. But we already knew that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States

The most popular place to go in the entire world is Thailand. Huh.

But you had to figure it would be in Asia someplace since that is where most of the people live.

[Berkut]

Has anyone ever gone to PR for dental care? I think that is a thing. I need a crown. Dentists says it is $1300. Cheaper to fly to PR once they rebuild it and get it done there?

[The Minsky Moment]

Again, the issue you aren't addressing is that it is difficult to attribute medical tourism from Canada to the US solely or even primarily to different health insurance regimes in the two countries. Even if the systems were identical, such medical tourism would still occur.

Disagree, insofar as the supply of health care is a function to some extent of the reimbursement rate, which is a function of the insurance system.

His statement is still correct though.  There would be some medical tourism even if the insurance system and reimbursement rates were identical.  The US is a bigger country with more specialized medical clinics and universities so there would always be certain specialties or specialists that would draw people across the border.

[Malthus]

Again, the issue you aren't addressing is that it is difficult to attribute medical tourism from Canada to the US solely or even primarily to different health insurance regimes in the two countries. Even if the systems were identical, such medical tourism would still occur.

Disagree, insofar as the supply of health care is a function to some extent of the reimbursement rate, which is a function of the insurance system.

I don't understand the disagreement.

How can such a statement, even if assumed to be true, demonstrate that the medical tourism rate is "solely or even primarily" due to differences in health insurance regimes (and not, say, to the US having more medical talent, larger specialist centres, etc.)?

[HVC]

Again, the issue you aren't addressing is that it is difficult to attribute medical tourism from Canada to the US solely or even primarily to different health insurance regimes in the two countries. Even if the systems were identical, such medical tourism would still occur.

Disagree, insofar as the supply of health care is a function to some extent of the reimbursement rate, which is a function of the insurance system.

Well let's see...according to Wiki we had between 60K and 85K medical tourists traveling here and 750,000 Americans going abroad. Sounds like our insurance system has problems. But we already knew that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States

The most popular place to go in the entire world is Thailand. Huh.

But you had to figure it would be in Asia someplace since that is where most of the people live.

Under reported number of American transsexuals?

[Eddie Teach]

Damn Malthus and I have some kind of mental connection

No! you and BB are doppelgangers. that's established languish tradition and will not be changed.

Ours is but a physical similarity.  On most issues we are polar opposites: I'm conservative he's liberal, I'm an anglophile while he's a francophile, I support the mighty Winnipeg Jets while he pulls for some dinky operation known as the University of Texas...

He's not that liberal; the prospect of Bernie Sanders scared him to death.

[Zoupa]

So less than 0.2%?

Yes.  I said many, not most.

Clearly being able to privately pay for medical services is something only the rich are able to do.  And clearly most Canadians, of whatever their means, don't need any kind of medical specialist care in any given year.  But it is a known phenomenon.

Being a known phenomenon doesn't add much weight to the issue without accurate data. Bears shitting in the woods is a known phenomenon too but it don't matter much to the issue at hand.

Once we have the real number of people, you still need to dig deeper: how many are for cosmetic procedures for example? How many are bi-nationals?

I'm a health professional, in the field for 18 years. I can tell you the number of people going to the US for serious issues because of long wait times or unavailability of service is very, very small.

We're talking 20-30 people per year for QC, which is about 25% of Canada's population.

[Ed Anger]

Can you write me a scrip for Norco 5-325? Thx.

[viper37]

So less than 0.2%?

Do you think people travel to the US for a flu?

It is estimated that in 2017:

    103,100 Canadian men will be diagnosed with cancer and 42,600 men will die from cancer.
    103,200 Canadian women will be diagnosed with cancer and 38,200 women will die from cancer.
    On average, 565 Canadians will be diagnosed with cancer every day.
    On average, 221 Canadians will die from cancer every day.

206 000 people by year get diagnosed from a cancer.

if 63 000 people per year go to the US to seek treatment, that means somewhere around 25-30% of people with serious life threatening diseased go to the US to seek medical treatment, if we assume that some of those going to the US do so for treatments other than cancer.  Generally speaking, the system is very quick to treat people with heart diseases, so I doubt these ones go to the US.  Some rare genetic diseases have experimental treatment in the US, but they're not in the thousands.  If you need dialysis, chances are you can't climb on an airplane and travel to Florida.

Also, some people go to Cuba for their healthcare need.  It's a fraction of the costs of the US.  Mexico has some good dentists too.

[Barrister]

So less than 0.2%?

Do you think people travel to the US for a flu?

It is estimated that in 2017:

    103,100 Canadian men will be diagnosed with cancer and 42,600 men will die from cancer.
    103,200 Canadian women will be diagnosed with cancer and 38,200 women will die from cancer.
    On average, 565 Canadians will be diagnosed with cancer every day.
    On average, 221 Canadians will die from cancer every day.

206 000 people by year get diagnosed from a cancer.

if 63 000 people per year go to the US to seek treatment, that means somewhere around 25-30% of people with serious life threatening diseased go to the US to seek medical treatment, if we assume that some of those going to the US do so for treatments other than cancer.  Generally speaking, the system is very quick to treat people with heart diseases, so I doubt these ones go to the US.  Some rare genetic diseases have experimental treatment in the US, but they're not in the thousands.  If you need dialysis, chances are you can't climb on an airplane and travel to Florida.

Also, some people go to Cuba for their healthcare need.  It's a fraction of the costs of the US.  Mexico has some good dentists too.

YOu're muddying the waters by bringing up cancer.

The problem with waiting lists in Canada doesn't really come up for cancer.  Cancer is a potentially fatal disease and the docs up here will jump on it FAST.  And if you're going to the US for cancer treatment the government is likely paying for it.  Mrs B remembers spending time in Minneapolis as a kid because she was a bone marrow donor for her brother who had leukemia, and I can guarantee you that her family wasn't paying out of pocket for that.

The problem is more ailments that are not fatal, but cause lingering pain and discomfort.  The waiting list for a lot of joint surgeries is painfully long.

[jimmy olsen]

It is puzzling how the US managed to get a medical insurance system that, apparently, has few advantages over any comparable system anywhere else.

I thought the "advantage" was that if you have means, the US system is the top medical system in the world hands down.  There's a reason you get many Canadians travelling to the US to get surgeries or procedures that they would have to wait many months for in Canada - if the procedure is even available in Canada.

The US Healthcare system is very advanced, more so than the Canadian; it is a wealthy society with a much larger talent pool of medical professionals, able to support top-tier medical centers and specialists in all areas of practice ... but this is, I think, a function of the size and wealth of the US and of its overall high level of technology.

I dunno if a good argument can be made that, regardless of these factors, the US medical insurance system is the 'cause' for why 'many' Canadians who can afford it would wish to have US specialists to perform their procedures.

Wouldn't that happen even if the systems in both countries were identical?

Canada, an overall slightly poorer nation, has 1/10 the population of the US, so it is hardly surprising that the US has more top-ranked professionals, better economies of scale for specialist medical centers, etc. If you want "the best" talent "in the world" (or at least on the continent), you are always likely to seek for it in the US.

Indeed, it is a strong an ironic contrast, that a wealthy and advanced society, that has such a depth of medical talent, has such uniformly (by objective standards) worse medical outcomes on a population-wide scale than Canada, which is poorer and smaller. That is, unfortunately, something that can be fairly blamed on its dysfunctional health insurance system.

Canada is smaller, but is the population as a whole really appreciably poorer? GDP per capita is lower, but that's due to the super rich skewing the numbers. Median income is almost the same.