Acts of Terrorism megathread

[Tamas]

In Texas.  Can't blame the State gun laws being too strict this time. 
The kids weren't armed with their own AR-15, that's why it happened.

If I read correctly, the governor said the solution to this would be arming teachers, so you're not far off.

Republicans.

Unless the teacher keeps the rifle armed and strapped to its body, I don't see how this is going to help.  The time it would take for the teachers to get to a locker, find the right key under stress, take the gun and charge it, the carnage would be well under way.  I think, in a city, the police might even be there faster than the teacher can get his rifle and aim at the perpetrator.  Meanwhile, you have kids to take care of. <sigh>

That there is anyone willing to propose, let alone entertain, such proposals shows how dysfunctional their society is in regards to guns.

[Admiral Yi]

Republicans.

Unless the teacher keeps the rifle armed and strapped to its body, I don't see how this is going to help.  The time it would take for the teachers to get to a locker, find the right key under stress, take the gun and charge it, the carnage would be well under way.  I think, in a city, the police might even be there faster than the teacher can get his rifle and aim at the perpetrator.  Meanwhile, you have kids to take care of. <sigh>

I think what advocates of this solution envision is teachers carrying a 32 in a holster, all the time.

[Josquius]

In Texas.  Can't blame the State gun laws being too strict this time. 
The kids weren't armed with their own AR-15, that's why it happened.

If I read correctly, the governor said the solution to this would be arming teachers, so you're not far off.

Republicans.

Unless the teacher keeps the rifle armed and strapped to its body, I don't see how this is going to help.  The time it would take for the teachers to get to a locker, find the right key under stress, take the gun and charge it, the carnage would be well under way.  I think, in a city, the police might even be there faster than the teacher can get his rifle and aim at the perpetrator.  Meanwhile, you have kids to take care of. <sigh>

Yeah, key reason why the guns for self defence from humans argument is so mind numbingly stupid.

Plus I don't think it's crazy to assume you'd end up with more school shootings this way as some teachers crack or fuck up.

[grumbler]

I think what advocates of this solution envision is teachers carrying a 32 in a holster, all the time.

Yes.  This solution always works in the movies.  And in the movies, you hardy ever hear about the horrific number of accidental firearm deaths that result from mixing loaded weapons and kinds.  The Rambo Solution only works in the Rambo movies, but Republicans have a hard time distinguishing between reality and the movies.

[crazy canuck]

I think what advocates of this solution envision is teachers carrying a 32 in a holster, all the time.

Yes.  This solution always works in the movies.  And in the movies, you hardy ever hear about the horrific number of accidental firearm deaths that result from mixing loaded weapons and kinds.  The Rambo Solution only works in the Rambo movies, but Republicans have a hard time distinguishing between reality and the movies.

Last week we were on vacation at a ranch in Central BC.  They had a guy there who took us out to his firing range and he taught us how to shoot some of his guns.  First time trying out guns and so these are the comments of a complete rookie.  But damn it took a lot of concentration to hit a target.   And each gun was completely different.  I have to admit that when I tried the revolver, I found it next to impossible to hit the target even with a lot of time and concentration  What he called a sniper rifle was much easier to hit the target with at a much longer distance.  But that took a lot of time to line up properly - at least for me.  And I really had to make sure the butt was up tight against my chest/shoulder.

Not sure I would be of any use in a live shooter situation even if I was armed to the teeth with guns.

[viper37]

I think what advocates of this solution envision is teachers carrying a 32 in a holster, all the time.

I presume police officers are trained in the use of a handgun, or handguns or various calibers.  Even they get shot when surprised by such a gunman.

A few tests were done with regular people, carrying a handgun like that, after the Charlie Hebdo attacks in France.  None of the Americans tested could draw fast enough to kill the shooter before he shot all people in the room.

In a real situation like that, an untrained individual will likely panic and have slower reflexes.  The gunman approaches with his guns ready to shoot, safety off, already pointing in the right direction and if the gun is modded to be full-auto like a M-16, there's already a hail of bullets fired a close range before the teacher can pull his gun. 

Imagine the likely scenario where Grumbler is teaching, face to the blackboard, while a gunman enters his classroom with an AR-15. Unmodded, these things fire 45 rounds/minute for the average shooter.  The military model the M-16 is 700-800 rounds/min.  let's assume a modded AR-15 rifle could fire 100 rounds/min.

I will assume that Grumbler is proficient with the use of a firearm, having been in the navy in the past, where I imagine, despite not being as trained as infantry are, they are still thaught to handle a gun or a rifle during their carreer (please correct me if I'm wrong here).

So we have a qualified operator of handgun, face to the board, while a shooter armed with two regular AR-15 enters his classroom.  By the time he can turn around to see the commotion, draw his gun, aim at the unarmored shooter in the center-mass, how many bullets have sprayed in the class?

Assume an untrained civilian, someone like me or Oex, and to make things a little more even, that untrained teacher is facing the door while speaking to his class.  An armored shooter like that one would enter the class with a modded AR-15, either an illegal bump stock, not that hard to obtain on the black market, or other devices to modify it to be closer to an M-16.  How much bullets can that shooter fire before that untrained civilian can manage to shoot him down?

That's the problem with proponents of arming teachers like most Republicans, independent of the fact that teachers may not want to open carry while teaching: it does not resist reality.

In the Buffalo case, a police officer, approaching with gun drawn, was killed without even injuring the shooter.  How much chance would a guy like me with a 32 have to defend 25 chilldren?  Or any number of adult civilians panicking after the first rounds are shot?

The most practical laws would be red flag laws were risky individuals can have their gun seized by the police immediatly.  That would be a good start.  Not selling guns to every goddam psycho and criminal out there would be another.

[DGuller]

Obviously arming the teachers alone is not a solution.  You have to also require teachers to get combat training, because armed or not, an untrained civilian is unlikely to react properly to a quickly developing situation.

[viper37]

I think what advocates of this solution envision is teachers carrying a 32 in a holster, all the time.

Yes.  This solution always works in the movies.  And in the movies, you hardy ever hear about the horrific number of accidental firearm deaths that result from mixing loaded weapons and kinds.  The Rambo Solution only works in the Rambo movies, but Republicans have a hard time distinguishing between reality and the movies.

Last week we were on vacation at a ranch in Central BC.  They had a guy there who took us out to his firing range and he taught us how to shoot some of his guns.  First time trying out guns and so these are the comments of a complete rookie.  But damn it took a lot of concentration to hit a target.  And each gun was completely different.  I have to admit that when I tried the revolver, I found it next to impossible to hit the target even with a lot of time and concentration  What he called a sniper rifle was much easier to hit the target with at a much longer distance.  But that took a lot of time to line up properly - at least for me.  And I really had to make sure the butt was up tight against my chest/shoulder.

Not sure I would be of any use in a live shooter situation even if I was armed to the teeth with guns.

that's the problem with arming teachers, they would need to receive at minimum the training police officers receive to handle a gun and be regularly qualified to use it.

I can see how well it would work to have training ranges in child daycare and elementary schools...

[viper37]

Obviously arming the teachers alone is not a solution.  You have to also require teachers to get combat training, because armed or not, an untrained civilian is unlikely to react properly to a quickly developing situation.

And schools would need to build training range on site, or send their teachers to one so they be trained.  And the teachers would do it for free, on their time... ?  And they'll get AP rounds to cover the possibility of a dude wearing a bullet proof vest?

[DGuller]

Obviously arming the teachers alone is not a solution.  You have to also require teachers to get combat training, because armed or not, an untrained civilian is unlikely to react properly to a quickly developing situation.

And schools would need to build training range on site, or send their teachers to one so they be trained.  And the teachers would do it for free, on their time... ?  And they'll get AP rounds to cover the possibility of a dude wearing a bullet proof vest?

Obviously they won't do it for free, they'll do it for the opportunity to keep their paying job.

[grumbler]

The idea that you can train all of the teachers in the US to be proficient enough in properly carrying, maintaining, and using a firearm, that you can give them the firing range practice to allow them to be accurate enough to confidently fire in a building full of students (just on the other side of that sheetrock wall) and maintain that proficiency through frequent refresher shoots, and train them well-enough in shoot-don't-shoot procedures to avoid unnecessary gunfire in a chaotic situation... THATS FUCKING INSANE!

Any teacher who thinks that they should try to Rambo the situation rather than evacuating their students should be fired.  As Viper points out, I'm unlikely to win that shootout anyway.

Owning a gun isn't a right.  The second Amendment has nothing to do with individual rights. Gun ownership should be restricted to those who actually need them and pass enough training courses (including refreshers) and gun ownership should be tracked.  Eighteen-year-olds should not be able to buy guns any more than they can liquor or cigarettes.

[The Minsky Moment]

Anyone who suggests as a policy the proliferation of firearms in crowded buildings with thin walls and rooms full of children is criminally negligent at best.

[HVC]

Who sees a house on fire an thinks that more fire would help the situation.

Does the gun lobby pay off that many politicians or is it all cultural?

[HisMajestyBOB]

Most of the politicians aren't serious about arming teachers or any of that crap. It's just a way of deflecting the issue without giving ground. If they were serious, they would have actually done it.

[Admiral Yi]

Does the gun lobby pay off that many politicians or is it all cultural?

It's very cultural.