Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Duque de Bragança]

Anti-Zionism is the recognition that the Jewish people are unique in the world in that they don't deserve self-determination.

There have been a lot of people who identify as a particular group who would have a case to make they were denied self determinism.  The Jewish people would not be unique in that regard.

There's no issues around anti-Kurdism in the world for example.

Yeah, there cannot be anti-Mountain Turkism! 

[Eddie Teach]

most people don't know who or what kurds are.

No whey.

[HVC]

most people don't know who or what kurds are.

No whey.

If there was a radical anti-punners group I'd join them in a heart beat

[crazy canuck]

Anti-Zionism is the recognition that the Jewish people are unique in the world in that they don't deserve self-determination.

There have been a lot of people who identify as a particular group who would have a case to make they were denied self determinism.  The Jewish people would not be unique in that regard.

There's no issues around anti-Kurdism in the world for example.

I think they Kurds would disagree with you.  They have not historically received a lot of love from their neighbours.

No whey.

Whey

[viper37]

Anti-Zionism is the recognition that the Jewish people are unique in the world in that they don't deserve self-determination.

There have been a lot of people who identify as a particular group who would have a case to make they were denied self determinism.  The Jewish people would not be unique in that regard.

There's no issues around anti-Kurdism in the world for example.

I think they Kurds would disagree with you.  They have not historically received a lot of love from their neighbours.

I think he was being sarcastik

[Barrister]

most people don't know who or what kurds are.

No whey.

If there was a radical anti-punners group I'd join them in a heart beat

All punsters must hang!

[Valmy]

  I knew BB would like that

[Tamas]

Yeah point is, you can't throw a rock in the world without hitting a ground that ethnic groups are arguing about. In significant portions of the world, that argument manifests in wars and ethnic cleansing and forceful (re-)settlements.

But, weirdly, literally the only time these absolutely not antisemitic people are concerned enough about this phenomenom to speak up against it, is when it is done by Jews. Otherwise it fails to register on their interest-radar.

[Syt]

I think it may be - partially - a similar bias as with the US - they're held to a higher standard because they generally aspire to be better. If Russia invades a neighboring country it's Russia being Russia. If Turkey stomps the Kurds it's Turkey being Turkey.

If the US invade a country, or the Israelis use violence against Palestinians - regardless how justified it may be at the moment - there's always an undercurrent of, "We thought you were better than this."

[Tamas]

I think it may be - partially - a similar bias as with the US - they're held to a higher standard because they generally aspire to be better. If Russia invades a neighboring country it's Russia being Russia. If Turkey stomps the Kurds it's Turkey being Turkey.

If the US invade a country, or the Israelis use violence against Palestinians - regardless how justified it may be at the moment - there's always an undercurrent of, "We thought you were better than this."

True, that's for sure part of it for some, but in this case not nearly all I think, and this attitude I really dislike anyways. It's the special kind of condescending/patronising racism the Left tends to have.

[Malthus]

I don't hate or even dislike Israel for existing.  I don't begrudge the Jewish people the right to have a homeland.  I appreciate their efforts to keep Democracy in a very un-Democratic land.  I respect their efforts to maintain their homeland and the efforts it took to regain it.  I do take issue with how those in power have been acting of late, their treatment of the former Palestinians in Israel, the treatment of those in the Occupied Territories, their stoking of tensions in the region (which I freely admit is mirrored in their neighbors attitudes toward them.  Deescalation could be a nice new tactic to try though.), the call of Antisemitism any time any policy or choice they make is called into question, and their denial of any wrong doing or problems as it pertains to the prior items.  I hope that Bibi does get indicted.  I hope his party loses power and a more moderate and even keeled government takes over.  We shall see though.

Then we are mostly on the same page. 

The Bibi government is hardly unique in denying all wrongdoing they have done. Indeed, that seems practically a worldwide epidemic at the moment. 

The left has no-one to blame but itself for enabling Bibi to label all detractors as Jew-haters - as it has proved impossible for the left to, apparently, avoid catering to genuinely anti-Semitic types (see: Labour, in the UK). Allowing "anti-Israeli" to become respectable, the above-noted use of comparisons with diverse unpleasant regimes, etc. all play into Bibi's hands - they give him ammunition, they convince his domestic audience that Israel is under siege, etc.

I mean, Bibi's gonna lie and deflect all criticism--that's what he does and you don't really expect any better from him.

[Malthus]

I think it may be - partially - a similar bias as with the US - they're held to a higher standard because they generally aspire to be better. If Russia invades a neighboring country it's Russia being Russia. If Turkey stomps the Kurds it's Turkey being Turkey.

If the US invade a country, or the Israelis use violence against Palestinians - regardless how justified it may be at the moment - there's always an undercurrent of, "We thought you were better than this."

Israel was born out of ethnic conflict, though, in the chaos following the end of WW2, and has fought its neighbours - and/or Palestinians - practically continuously ever since. It makes no sense to be disappointed that it fell from a previous state of grace.

Certainly, many Israelis seek peace, but of necessity peace for them means that they win - because if they lose, they cease to exist. That, in essence, is what the conflict is about.

This is the problem for the left (both here and in Israel): they talk peace, and have a very good idea of what peace looks like - but this vision is simply unacceptable to the opposite side, and will lead to conflict just as surely as the vision of the Right. This is why the Right currently has the advantage in domestic Israeli politics, loathsome as they are: that the vision of the Left makes perfect sense, serious efforts have been made to implement it - and the other side has no interest whatsoever in it. Yet a true peace must be agreed with, not merely dictated.

The vision on the Right is 'if they aren't interested in peace, we will just take what we want, wall off the rest, and let them rot". That's bad, but at least it's a plan. The Left has no plan, other than "if we keep talking about a just two-state solution, eventually the other side will listen". The Palestinian plan still appears to be to wait until 'inevitable historical forces' of some sort wipe Israel away, then repopulate their villages, and they are not willing to listen to alternative plans that sign away that dream forever. 

[frunk]

Well, the problem is that Israel is in a situation that leaves them with terrible choices.  The only resolutions that don't lead to bloodshed or atrocities is either a two state or a one state multi-cultural.  Neither one will happen quickly without a radical change in political and social attitudes from the Palestinians.  In that sense the Left's lack of plan is way better than the Right's "we're going to make the situation more unstable and unpleasant and pretend it's not because of what we are doing".

[Razgovory]

Anti-Zionism is the recognition that the Jewish people are unique in the world in that they don't deserve self-determination.

There have been a lot of people who identify as a particular group who would have a case to make they were denied self determinism.  The Jewish people would not be unique in that regard.

I retract my previous statement.

[Malthus]

Anti-Zionism is the recognition that the Jewish people are unique in the world in that they don't deserve self-determination.

There have been a lot of people who identify as a particular group who would have a case to make they were denied self determinism.  The Jewish people would not be unique in that regard.

I retract my previous statement.

Lots of people have been denied ethno-nationalist self-determination, and languish as a minority in some larger ethno-nation inimical to them (see Kurds in Turkey or Tibetans in China as examples).

What makes Zionism unique, in that it gets condemned for having successfully achieved ethno-nationalist self-determination, as if it that were a uniquely bad thing the Zionists had invented.

Often, ironically enough, by the very same people who have every sympathy with the ethno-nationalist strivings of, say, Kurds or Tibetans (or for that matter, Palestinians).