Sheilbh's Scott Walker Lovefest and Union Bashing Megathread

[frunk]

Public sector unions are bargaining against the taxpayer.
Highly immoral.

It would be best for the taxpayer if the public sector employees worked for free.

[Siege]

Public sector unions are bargaining against the taxpayer.
Highly immoral.

It would be best for the taxpayer if the public sector employees worked for free.

Don't ridiculize my point by taking it to the other extreme.

[Admiral Yi]

It would be best for the taxpayer if the public sector employees worked for free.

It might, but since they won't, we should aim for the next best outcome.

[Berkut]

Public sector unions are bargaining against the taxpayer.
Highly immoral.

It would be best for the taxpayer if the public sector employees worked for free.

No, actually it would not, since presumably they are actually doing valuable work, and people who work for free rarely work very hard or competently.

[frunk]

Don't ridiculize my point by taking it to the other extreme.

When someone is hired for any position, isn't there implicitly a bargain going on between the employer and the employee?  "We'll pay you so much for this work."  How is bargaining automatically immoral?

[frunk]

No, actually it would not, since presumably they are actually doing valuable work, and people who work for free rarely work very hard or competently.

That's true, but since bargaining with taxpayers is immoral I don't see any other way to restore morality to government.

[Admiral Yi]

When someone is hired for any position, isn't there implicitly a bargain going on between the employer and the employee?  "We'll pay you so much for this work."  How is bargaining automatically immoral?

Bargaining is not inherently immoral.  What is inherently immoral is bribing the people who have been elected to bargain on behalf of the general population.

[Jacob]

When someone is hired for any position, isn't there implicitly a bargain going on between the employer and the employee?  "We'll pay you so much for this work."  How is bargaining automatically immoral?

Bargaining is not inherently immoral.  What is inherently immoral is bribing the people who have been elected to bargain on behalf of the general population.

Sounds to me like it's the bribing part that's a problem, not the bargaining part then.

[Admiral Yi]

Sounds to me like it's the bribing part that's a problem, not the bargaining part then.

Out of the bribing flows the closed shop, which is a also a problem.

If one teacher says i'll take this job but you can't fire me if I suck, that's fine.  You don't hire them.  If a bunch of teachers say that it's still fine.  If a teachers union says that, and you're not allowed to hire a nonunion teacher, that can be a problem.

[Jacob]

Sounds to me like it's the bribing part that's a problem, not the bargaining part then.

Out of the bribing flows the closed shop, which is a also a problem.

If one teacher says i'll take this job but you can't fire me if I suck, that's fine.  You don't hire them.  If a bunch of teachers say that it's still fine.  If a teachers union says that, and you're not allowed to hire a nonunion teacher, that can be a problem.

We're probably not going to see eye to eye on closed shop. I concede that it can be problematic in certain contexts, but I don't have a philosophical problem with the concept.

Bribing is bad, agreed.

Bargaining is fine, I believe we agree on that too.

Closed shop... I agree with "it can be a problem" but I suspect we may draw lines for that in very different places.

[frunk]

Out of the bribing flows the closed shop, which is a also a problem.

I think we can all agree that bribery is a problem, closed shop can be a problem.  Both of these are far from bargaining being the problem.

[Admiral Yi]

I think we can all agree that bribery is a problem, closed shop can be a problem.

I'm quite sure a number of posters would write these off as GOP spin.

[frunk]

I'm quite sure a number of posters would write these off as GOP spin.

Bribery being bad is spin, or are you talking about specific instances of bribery?

[Admiral Yi]

Bribery being bad is spin, or are you talking about specific instances of bribery?

To be clear, by bribery I mean campaign contributions.

And I'm positive that many posters will not agree that a closed shop is bad.

[CountDeMoney]

If one teacher says i'll take this job but you can't fire me if I suck, that's fine.  You don't hire them.  If a bunch of teachers say that it's still fine.  If a teachers union says that, and you're not allowed to hire a nonunion teacher, that can be a problem.

Yeah, it's always the teachers.  Or the nurses.  Or the laborers.  It's never the cops or the firefighters or anybody else who traditionally votes conservative as a bloc.   Amazing how that shit works.