The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Malthus]

BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

There would be a huge outcry, for sure, and murder charges laid. There is even when the cops shoot someone undoubtedly threatening others with a knife.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/sammyyatim.html

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/07/30/toronto_cop_charged_with_attempted_murder_in_sammy_yatim_shooting.html

[DGuller]

I didn't grow up in the Soviet Union so when I was out playing as a kid I wasn't thinking that cops would shoot me because they mistook my toy gun for a real one.  I also didn't think about getting a commercial license for a lemonade stand or about moving violations while riding a bike.

A swing and a miss.  In Soviet Union cops were actually very unlikely to shoot you, because they weren't allowed to unless the situation has become really obviously dangerous 15 minutes ago.  They were also obligated to fire in the air before firing at you.

[Barrister]

BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

It's funny, I have no problem shooting from the hip about topics I have only a passing familiarity with.

But since I have written a number of opinions on potential charges against police officers, I would want to see all the witness statements before coming to an opinion.  Sometimes it's what seems like innocuous details at first are what decides whether or not to prosecute.

The thing to remember is that in Canada, given we have orders of magnitude less handguns than in the US, police can afford to be a little more trusting than in the US.

Here's the RCMP Use of Force policy if you're curious.  Ultimately though it always comes down to what the officer was perceiving at the moment in question.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ccaps-spcca/cew-ai/imim-migi-eng.htm

[Tonitrus]

Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

I think this is one of the key differences between the attitude towards the police in the US and elsewhere I'm familiar with (Canada, parts of Europe).

In the US, what you posted seems to constitute enough of a reason to clear the officers of wrongdoing. Elsewhere, I would think it would be taken as evidence that the cops had seriously fucked up.

Shooting a 12 year old with a toy gun because you didn't realize he was a kid with a plastic toy rather than someone trying to kill you indicates that the officers approached the situation in the wrong way; maybe they didn't murder the child, but it sure seems to be some sort of manslaughter/ negligent homicide.

If you read my earlier posts, I concede that the cops approached the scene in rather unwise and reckless manner.

A tragic situation all around with faults on both sides.

[Jacob]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

It didn't start with the cops driving across the grass of the playground, sirens blazing, straight at the kid? Isn't that what you just said happened?

[Razgovory]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

I suppose if you live in a police state.  Most other people who are not doing anything wrong (like this kid) would wonder why the police are there.

Maybe the would wonder, but while wondering, they wouldn't make any moves that could be misinterpreted.  It's not police state thing, it's just common sense, same reason why it's a good idea to have your hands on the wheel while pulled over.

DG, we are talking about little kids here.  When I was 12 I did things that were contrary to common sense.  Like climbing a rickety watertower or exploring the storm sewer system with a flash light.  When I was that young cops didn't seem dangerous to me.  They chased after robbers and super villains.  You can't expect a 12 year old to make rational decisions.  Hell some of them ride skateboards, something no rational human being would do.

[Malthus]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

I suppose if you live in a police state.  Most other people who are not doing anything wrong (like this kid) would wonder why the police are there.

Not doing anything wrong?  Did you see the rest of the video where the kid is brandishing the (apparent to everyone else but the kid) weapon in a reckless enough manner that a bystander calls the police?

I watched the video. Shows a bystander in the Gazebo sitting there. The kid is twirling the replica around - not pointing it at anyone (in the video at least). The bystander calls it in, says he thinks it is a replica (this info somehow failed to reach the cops), then calmly strolls away.

[Tonitrus]

I didn't grow up in the Soviet Union so when I was out playing as a kid I wasn't thinking that cops would shoot me because they mistook my toy gun for a real one.  I also didn't think about getting a commercial license for a lemonade stand or about moving violations while riding a bike.

A swing and a miss.  In Soviet Union cops were actually very unlikely to shoot you, because they weren't allowed to unless the situation has become really obviously dangerous 15 minutes ago.  They were also obligated to fire in the air before firing at you.

They were just more likely to shoot you after the show trial. 

[crazy canuck]

BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

It is very hard to imagine this ever happening here.  It is much more likely the police would react in the way I described when a man had a gun on the steps of the art gallery (ie cordon on the area and talk with the suspect.)

[Jacob]

Maybe the would wonder, but while wondering, they wouldn't make any moves that could be misinterpreted.  It's not police state thing, it's just common sense, same reason why it's a good idea to have your hands on the wheel while pulled over.

I guess the tragedy is that the boy hadn't internalized the necessary kowtowing to the police required in the US, especially by Black men?

[DGuller]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

It didn't start with the cops driving across the grass of the playground, sirens blazing, straight at the kid? Isn't that what you just said happened?

It started with the kid brandishing the toy gun convincingly enough to cause someone to call 911.  Even at 12 he had at least have it in the back of his mind that police might not like that behavior.  Once he did a good job convincing a bystander that he may have a real gun, he made himself a much more likely target of a deadly misunderstanding.

[Barrister]

Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

I think this is one of the key differences between the attitude towards the police in the US and elsewhere I'm familiar with (Canada, parts of Europe).

In the US, what you posted seems to constitute enough of a reason to clear the officers of wrongdoing. Elsewhere, I would think it would be taken as evidence that the cops had seriously fucked up.

Shooting a 12 year old with a toy gun because you didn't realize he was a kid with a plastic toy rather than someone trying to kill you indicates that the officers approached the situation in the wrong way; maybe they didn't murder the child, but it sure seems to be some sort of manslaughter/ negligent homicide.

You seem to be saying that since the kid wound up dead the police necessarily did something wrong.

The world doesn't always work that way.  Sometimes shitty things happen even when everyone is trying to do the right thing.  I don't know if that's the case here or not, but sometimes that's how it is.

[DGuller]

DG, we are talking about little kids here.  When I was 12 I did things that were contrary to common sense.  Like climbing a rickety watertower or exploring the storm sewer system with a flash light.  When I was that young cops didn't seem dangerous to me.  They chased after robbers and super villains.  You can't expect a 12 year old to make rational decisions.  Hell some of them ride skateboards, something no rational human being would do.

When I was 12, and going to toy stores, I was disappointed that it was hard to find a black gun, and even those guns were ruined with a big-ass orange cap.  My mom told me that the cap is there so that a cop wouldn't accidentally shoot you, and that made enough sense right there and then.

[Jacob]

If you read my earlier posts, I concede that the cops approached the scene in rather unwise and reckless manner.

A tragic situation all around with faults on both sides.

Yeah. Up here I think that a 12 year old boy with a toy gun would be assigned basically no fault, pretty much whatever he did, in his own shooting death.

Had he pulled out the gun and pretended to shoot at the cops while yelling PEW PEW PEW really loud, it would still be the officers fault for killing him, I expect.

[Malthus]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

It didn't start with the cops driving across the grass of the playground, sirens blazing, straight at the kid? Isn't that what you just said happened?

It started with the kid brandishing the toy gun convincingly enough to cause someone to call 911.  Even at 12 he had at least have it in the back of his mind that police might not like that behavior.  Once he did a good job convincing a bystander that he may have a real gun, he made himself a much more likely target of a deadly misunderstanding.

He didn't fool the bystander - the bystander was of the opinion the gun was a replica. (This info was allegedly not passed on to the cops)

Evidently, random gazebo-sitting dudes are more to be trusted on this point than trained cops ...