The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Malthus]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

The difference between a kid holding a replica gun, and two police officers with real guns, is that the former lacks any training as to what to do in a confrontation, and no ability to harm anyone during that confrontation. I'm going out on a limb here and holding professional cops to a somewhat higher standard of reaction when the latter shoots the former -partucularly where, as here, his 'bad acts' appear to consist of (1) failure to put his hands up in time, and (2) perhaps, showing the gun in his waistband.

If (2) is accurate, we obviously don't know why he did it - was he showing it because the cops were there, and he didn't want them to think he was hiding it? Was he showing it to say 'look, it's just a toy'? One thing is for sure - he wasn't planning on shooting the cops with it.

[Tonitrus]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

The difference between a kid holding a replica gun, and two police officers with real guns, is that the former lacks any training as to what to do in a confrontation, and no ability to harm anyone during that confrontation. I'm going out on a limb here and holding professional cops to a somewhat higher standard of reaction when the latter shoots the former -partucularly where, as here, his 'bad acts' appear to consist of (1) failure to put his hands up in time, and (2) perhaps, showing the gun in his waistband.

If (2) is accurate, we obviously don't know why he did it - was he showing it because the cops were there, and he didn't want them to think he was hiding it? Was he showing it to say 'look, it's just a toy'? One thing is for sure - he wasn't planning on shooting the cops with it.

Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

[Malthus]

How can the fact it is a kid in a playground (as opposed to, say, a masked thug in a bank robbery) not even be relevant to the police choice of response?

I get that the cops could not tell if it was a real gun, but surely context makes some difference here?

A gun is just as dangerous at a playground as it is in bank robbery. 

But this is the American-Canadian disconnect at work here, where your idea of some idyllic sylvan playground full of happy children and unicorns is different than the reality of a playground in east Cleveland. 

Well, I'm certainly glad I don't live in a place where there is literally no difference between a playground and the site of a bank robbery in progress. 

[Malthus]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

The difference between a kid holding a replica gun, and two police officers with real guns, is that the former lacks any training as to what to do in a confrontation, and no ability to harm anyone during that confrontation. I'm going out on a limb here and holding professional cops to a somewhat higher standard of reaction when the latter shoots the former -partucularly where, as here, his 'bad acts' appear to consist of (1) failure to put his hands up in time, and (2) perhaps, showing the gun in his waistband.

If (2) is accurate, we obviously don't know why he did it - was he showing it because the cops were there, and he didn't want them to think he was hiding it? Was he showing it to say 'look, it's just a toy'? One thing is for sure - he wasn't planning on shooting the cops with it.

Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

That's not the issue in my post.

[crazy canuck]

How can the fact it is a kid in a playground (as opposed to, say, a masked thug in a bank robbery) not even be relevant to the police choice of response?

I get that the cops could not tell if it was a real gun, but surely context makes some difference here?

A gun is just as dangerous at a playground as it is in bank robbery. 

But this is the American-Canadian disconnect at work here, where your idea of some idyllic sylvan playground full of happy children and unicorns is different than the reality of a playground in east Cleveland. 

Well, I'm certainly glad I don't live in a place where there is literally no difference between a playground and the site of a bank robbery in progress. 

[Razgovory]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

The difference between a kid holding a replica gun, and two police officers with real guns, is that the former lacks any training as to what to do in a confrontation, and no ability to harm anyone during that confrontation. I'm going out on a limb here and holding professional cops to a somewhat higher standard of reaction when the latter shoots the former -partucularly where, as here, his 'bad acts' appear to consist of (1) failure to put his hands up in time, and (2) perhaps, showing the gun in his waistband.

If (2) is accurate, we obviously don't know why he did it - was he showing it because the cops were there, and he didn't want them to think he was hiding it? Was he showing it to say 'look, it's just a toy'? One thing is for sure - he wasn't planning on shooting the cops with it.

Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

If they had no way of knowing if a gun is real or not or is even there then perhaps they should alter the way they do things so that they get more information before shooting at people?

[Tonitrus]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

The difference between a kid holding a replica gun, and two police officers with real guns, is that the former lacks any training as to what to do in a confrontation, and no ability to harm anyone during that confrontation. I'm going out on a limb here and holding professional cops to a somewhat higher standard of reaction when the latter shoots the former -partucularly where, as here, his 'bad acts' appear to consist of (1) failure to put his hands up in time, and (2) perhaps, showing the gun in his waistband.

If (2) is accurate, we obviously don't know why he did it - was he showing it because the cops were there, and he didn't want them to think he was hiding it? Was he showing it to say 'look, it's just a toy'? One thing is for sure - he wasn't planning on shooting the cops with it.

Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

That's not the issue in my post.

For me, I don't think the video quality is clear, or smooth enough to distinguish if the kid is just "displaying" the weapon, or going so far as to reach and draw.  Just barely enough to give the impression it is one of those actions.

[Barrister]

I don't know if it's different in the US (given the easy availability of real handguns) but up here those airsoft pellet guns are moderately popular with wanna-be gangbangers precisely because they look a heck of a lot like a real handgun.

[Tonitrus]

I don't know if it's different in the US (given the easy availability of real handguns) but up here those airsoft pellet guns are moderately popular with wanna-be gangbangers precisely because they look a heck of a lot like a real handgun.

I am sure they are.  And probably no small amount of kids in bad neighborhoods get them because they're afraid of those with the real guns, but not "hard" enough to get a real gun, or feel comfortable handling one, themselves.

[Jacob]

BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

[Malthus]

For me, I don't think the video quality is clear, or smooth enough to distinguish if the kid is just "displaying" the weapon, or going so far as to reach and draw.  Just barely enough to give the impression it is one of those actions.

The cops may not know that the gun is a replica, but the kid certainly knew.

What possible point could there have been to draw a replica on the cops - even for a dumb-ass 12 year old?

[DGuller]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

I suppose if you live in a police state.  Most other people who are not doing anything wrong (like this kid) would wonder why the police are there.

Maybe the would wonder, but while wondering, they wouldn't make any moves that could be misinterpreted.  It's not police state thing, it's just common sense, same reason why it's a good idea to have your hands on the wheel while pulled over.

[Tonitrus]

The cops may not know that the gun is a replica, but the kid certainly knew.

What possible point could there have been to draw a replica on the cops - even for a dumb-ass 12 year old?

I think in the world and mindset of being a cop, it is dealing with a segment of the population (white or black) that does pointless things 90% of the time.

[Tonitrus]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

I suppose if you live in a police state.  Most other people who are not doing anything wrong (like this kid) would wonder why the police are there.

Not doing anything wrong?  Did you see the rest of the video where the kid is brandishing the (apparent to everyone else but the kid) weapon in a reckless enough manner that a bystander calls the police?

[Jacob]

Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

I think this is one of the key differences between the attitude towards the police in the US and elsewhere I'm familiar with (Canada, parts of Europe).

In the US, what you posted seems to constitute enough of a reason to clear the officers of wrongdoing. Elsewhere, I would think it would be taken as evidence that the cops had seriously fucked up.

Shooting a 12 year old with a toy gun because you didn't realize he was a kid with a plastic toy rather than someone trying to kill you indicates that the officers approached the situation in the wrong way; maybe they didn't murder the child, but it sure seems to be some sort of manslaughter/ negligent homicide.