Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-15 + 2022 Invasion

Started by mongers, August 06, 2014, 03:12:53 PM

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Razgovory

I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Darth Wagtaros

Quote from: Razgovory on June 24, 2022, 10:23:31 PMRussian equipment leaves something to be desired.  https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1540214406549749766
Yeah, well Russian news sources continue to say that thousands of American special operations operators have been slaughtered and NATO is falling part. Apparently most of the 10th Mountain Division has been destroyed, but as you know massive coverups are really easy. So they must be doing something right.
PDH!

grumbler

Quote from: Razgovory on June 24, 2022, 10:23:31 PMRussian equipment leaves something to be desired.  https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1540214406549749766

That kind of thing happens to even the best equipment.  Several submarines torpedoed themselves in WW2. and a ship I was on had am SM-1 missile detonate about two seconds after launching (luckily far enough away that we only got a couple of bits of debris hitting the ship and no injuries.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Zoupa


Zoupa

QuoteEmmanuel Macron:

Since our last conversation tensions have been growing and you know my commitment and determination to continue the dialogue. I would like you to give me first your reading of the situation and perhaps in a rather direct way, as we both do, tell me what your intentions are. And then I would like to try to see if there are still useful actions to be taken and to make some proposals.

Vladimir Putin:

What can I say? You see for yourself what is going on. You and Chancellor Scholz told me that Zelensky was ready to make a move, that he had prepared a bill to implement the Minsk agreements [...] in fact our dear colleague, Mr. Zelensky, is doing nothing. He is lying to you [...] I don't know if you heard his statement yesterday where he said that Ukraine must have access to atomic weapons.

I also heard your comments at the press conference in Kiev on February 8. You said that the Minsk agreements need to be revised, and I quote, "so that they can be implemented".

Emmanuel Macron:

Vladimir, first of all one thing, I never said that the Minsk agreements should be revised. I never said that in Berlin, in Kiev or in Paris. I said that they should be applied, that things should be respected, and I don't have the same interpretation of the last few days as you do.

Vladimir Putin:

Look Immanuel, I don't understand your problem with the separatists. At least they have done everything necessary, at our insistence, to open a constructive dialogue with the Ukrainian authorities.

Emmanuel Macron:

Regarding what you said, Vladimir, several remarks: first, the Minsk agreements are a dialogue with you, you are absolutely right. In this context, the basis for discussion is not a text submitted by the separatists. And so when your negotiator tries to force the Ukrainians to discuss on the basis of roadmaps of the separatists, he is not respecting the Minsk agreements. It is not separatists who will make proposals on Ukrainian laws!

Vladimir Putin:

Of course we have a completely different reading of the situation. During our last meeting, I reminded you and even read out articles 9, 11 and 12 of the Minsk agreements.

Emmanuel Macron:

I have them in front of me! It is clearly written that the Government of Ukraine - paragraph 9 etc. - proposes, and that it is in consultation and agreement with the representatives of certain districts of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, within the framework of the tripartite contact group. This is exactly what we propose to do. So I don't know where your lawyer learned the law (a counselor smiles). I just look at the texts and try to apply them! And I don't know what lawyer can tell you that in a sovereign country, the laws are proposed by separatist groups and not by the democratically elected authorities.

Vladimir Putin:

(firm, annoyed tone) This is not a democratically elected government. They came to power through a coup, people were burned alive, it was a bloodbath and Zelensky is one of the people responsible.

Listen to me: the principle of dialogue is to take into account the interests of the other side. The proposals exist, the separatists, as you call them, have passed them on to the Ukrainians, but they have not received any answer. Where is the dialogue?

Emmanuel Macron:

But because, as I just told you, we don't care about the proposals of the separatists. What we are asking them to do is to react to the texts of the Ukrainians and we have to do things in that sense because it is the law! What you have just said casts doubt on your own willingness to respect the Minsk agreements if you judge that you are facing non-legitimate and terrorist authorities.

Vladimir Putin:

(still very annoyed) Listen to me carefully. Do you hear me? I'm telling you again that the separatists, as you call them, have reacted to the proposals of the Ukrainian authorities. They responded, but the same authorities did not follow up.

Emmanuel Macron:

So okay: on the basis of their response to the Ukrainian texts, what I propose to you is that we demand from all parties a meeting within the framework of the contact group to continue to move forward. Tomorrow we can ask for this work to be done and demand that all parties involved do not have an empty chair policy. But over the last two days the separatists have not wanted to take part in this discussion. I am going to demand this of Zelensky. Do we agree on this? If we agree, I will launch it and demand a meeting tomorrow.

Vladimir Putin:

So just to be clear, as soon as we hang up, I will study these proposals. But from the beginning we should have put pressure on the Ukrainians, but nobody wanted to do that.

Emmanuel Macron:

But if I do my utmost to push them, you know that.

Vladimir Putin:

I know, but unfortunately it's not effective.

Emmanuel Macron:

I need you to help me a little (mischievously). The situation on the contact line is very tense. I really called yesterday for Zelensky to calm down. I will tell him again, calm everyone, calm in social networks, calm the Ukrainian armed forces. But what I also see, you can really call to calm your pre-positioned armed forces. There was a lot of bombing yesterday. If we want to give dialogue a chance, we need to calm down the game in the region. How do you see the evolution of the military exercises?

Vladimir Putin:

The exercises are going according to plan.

Emmanuel Macron:

So they end tonight, right?

Vladimir Putin:

Yes probably tonight and we will certainly leave a military presence on the border until the situation in Donbass calms down. The discussion will be taken in consultation with the Ministries of Defense and Foreign Affairs.

Emmanuel Macron:

Okay. Vladimir, I say to you very sincerely, for me to put the discussions in the right framework and avoid tensions is an absolute prerequisite. And what is important to me, and I really ask you to do this, is that the situation be brought under control. That's the first pillar. And I count on you a lot. Don't give in to any provocation in the hours and days to come.

I wanted to make two concrete proposals to you. The first is to organize a meeting in the next few days in Geneva between you and President Biden. I spoke to him on Friday evening and asked him if I could make this proposal to you. He told me to tell you that he was ready. President Biden has also been thinking about ways to credibly de-escalate the situation, to take into account your demands and to address very clearly the issue of NATO and Ukraine. Tell me the date that works for you.

Vladimir Putin:

Thank you very much Immanuel. It is always a great pleasure and honor to talk with your European counterparts as well as with the United States. And I always have great pleasure in dialoguing with you because we have a relationship of trust. So Emmanuel, I propose to you to reverse things. First of all, we need to prepare this meeting beforehand. It is only afterwards that we can talk because if we come like this, to talk about everything and nothing, we will be blamed again.

Emmanuel Macron:

But can we say today, there, at the end of these discussions that we agree on the principle? I would like a clear answer from you on this. I understand your reticence about a date, but are you ready to go ahead and say today "I want a meeting with two Americans, then extended to the Europeans" or not?

Vladimir Putin:

It's a proposal that deserves to be taken into account and if you want us to be well aligned on how to formulate it, I suggest you ask our advisors to call each other to agree [...,] but know that on the principle, I agree.

Emmanuel Macron:

Very well, you confirm to me that you agree on the principle. I propose that our teams [...] try to finalize a joint text, a kind of communiqué at the end of this call.

Vladimir Putin:

Not to hide anything from you, I wanted to go play ice hockey because right now I'm talking to you from the gym before I start physical exercises. I'm going to call my advisors first.

Emmanuel Macron:

Thank you in any case Vladimir. We stay in touch in real time. As soon as there's something, you call me.

Vladimir Putin:

Thank you Mr. President (in French).

Zoupa

Bless his heart, little Emmanuel really tried. Putin lied to his face.

Razgovory

Lysychansk looks just as untenable as Sievierodonetsk.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Tonitrus

Quote from: Zoupa on June 26, 2022, 12:25:43 AMFour days before the war, transcript of a call between Macron and Putin. Crazy stuff.

https://www.letemps.ch/monde/emmanuel-macron-vladimir-poutine-quatre-jours-guerre-ne-sais-juriste-appris-droit

QuoteEmmanuel Macron à Vladimir Poutine

So in French, the President of Russia is a dish of french fries topped with gravy and cheese curds?

Grey Fox

Yes.

It also can be used to describe regular and basic activities.
Colonel Caliga is Awesome.

Zanza


The Larch

This is a war crime, surely. Right?

QuoteAt least 10 dead as Russian missile hits shopping centre in Ukraine
Volodymyr Zelenskiy says about 1,000 civilians were inside the centre in the city of Kremenchuk at the time

A Russian missile strike has hit a crowded shopping centre in the central Ukrainian city of Kremenchuk, killing at least 10 people and wounding 40, a senior Ukrainian official has said.

Footage circulating on social media showed fire raging and smoke billowing from the shopping centre, with fire engines parked nearby.

The Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, wrote on Telegram that more than 1,000 civilians were inside the shopping centre in Kremenchuk and that the number of victims was "unimaginable".

He wrote: "The occupiers fired missiles at the shopping centre, where there were more than a thousand civilians. The mall is on fire, rescuers are extinguishing the fire, the number of victims is unimaginable. Russia continues to take out its impotence on ordinary citizens. It is useless to hope for decency and humanity from Russia."

A rescue operation was under way and nine of the wounded were in a serious condition, said Kyrylo Tymoshenko, the deputy head of the presidential office.

Dmitry Lunin, the governor of the Poltava region, said 10 people were dead, a number that he said could grow.

Kremenchuk is the site of Ukraine's biggest oil refinery and stands on the banks of the Dnieper River. The city serves as the administrative centre of the Kremenchuk district in Poltava oblast.

There was no immediate comment from Russia, which denies deliberately targeting civilians.

The attack came on the day of a G7 meeting in Germany where leaders discussed ways to punish Moscow for its invasion and pledged to stand with Ukraine "for as long as it takes".

Russia stepped up its missile strikes on Ukraine as the summit came closer, hitting the capital, Kyiv, on Sunday and launching 20 rockets fired from Belarusian territory, raising worries in Ukraine that Moscow is aiming to drag its key ally Belarus into the conflict.

Duque de Bragança


DGuller

Quote from: The Larch on June 27, 2022, 12:54:22 PMThis is a war crime, surely. Right?
Yeah, it is, what are you going to do about it?  :)

I wonder if this decade marks the general dropping of pretense.  It seems like throughout the world fascist forces are coming out of the closet, and challenging the very notion that being openly fascist is something to be ashamed of or that it is counterproductive.  GOP is now openly going for democracy's jugular, the USSC is now openly dictating the laws, and Russia is openly engaged in terror campaign against civilians.  No more subtlety, no more euphemisms, just shamelessness and gaslighting.

Jacob

I think that's what's happening DGuller. Fascism and other Reactionary forces are encouraged and brazen both in various domestic policies, and on the international scene.

It was expected, actually, as a reaction to modernity. However the expectation, I think, saw it as a natural transitional phase before modernity and progress carried on. Right now I admit to feeling more than a little worried that this transition is not a simple blip, but potentially a transition to a long, bloody, and miserable phase of reactionary ascendance.

PDH

Quote from: Jacob on June 27, 2022, 01:25:18 PMI think that's what's happening DGuller. Fascism and other Reactionary forces are encouraged and brazen both in various domestic policies, and on the international scene.

It was expected, actually, as a reaction to modernity. However the expectation, I think, saw it as a natural transitional phase before modernity and progress carried on. Right now I admit to feeling more than a little worried that this transition is not a simple blip, but potentially a transition to a long, bloody, and miserable phase of reactionary ascendance.

I see it as shorter-term reactionary power.  The forces falling out of synch with a more modern, transnational, and changing culture are united to a degree in their fear and disdain.  They are far more able to initially strike and strike hard, as they are a more cohesive group than the other they fear.  That said, the attacks and dominance attempts will end up crystalizing opposition to their minority position.

Much like the invasion was what finally might have made Ukraine into something new, this period of revanchism and scorched earth tactics by the reactionary group will likely create what they fear the most (and believe is already there) an actual movement opposing them.
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
-Umberto Eco

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"I'm pretty sure my level of depression has nothing to do with how much of a fucking asshole you are."

-CdM