Montana judge defends 30-day sentence for rape

[sbr]

This was her point:

I don't believe that all sexual conduct between underage students and teachers should necessarily be classified as rape, and I believe that absent extenuating circumstances, consensual sexual activity between teachers and students should not be criminalized

Is that really THAT outrageous to you?  I have an 19 and 17 (almost 18) year old daughters and I think it is a reasonable argument.  We have once again gone so far into ZOMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN^TM mode that most people can't think logically about this issue.  You can't even take someone who says "our society needs to have an uncensored dialogue about the reality of sex in schools." seriously, you immediately resort to strawman arguments and mockery.

Sure, I'll take issue with her saying that there shouldn't be criminal sanctions.

There should be criminal sanctions in every single case of student/teacher sex?  What about consensual sex between an 18 year old student and an early 20's first year teacher?

EDIT:  And taking issue with it is one thing, it is healthy.  Are you so outraged that you can't respond without ridiculous arguments?

[merithyn]

This was her point:

I don't believe that all sexual conduct between underage students and teachers should necessarily be classified as rape, and I believe that absent extenuating circumstances, consensual sexual activity between teachers and students should not be criminalized

Is that really THAT outrageous to you?  I have an 19 and 17 (almost 18) year old daughters and I think it is a reasonable argument.  We have once again gone so far into ZOMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN^TM mode that most people can't think logically about this issue.  You can't even take someone who says "our society needs to have an uncensored dialogue about the reality of sex in schools." seriously, you immediately resort to strawman arguments and mockery.

It is REALLY that outrageous to me that at any point anyone could be okay with teachers and their teenaged students having sex. I've said this repeatedly, but no one seems to be listening. The issues at hand here were the age of the student (14 is far too young to be in a sexual relationship with a man over the age of 20, much less over 50) and the fact that it was her teacher. Those are the reasons that I take issue with this particular case.

IN GENERAL, I have a lot of problems with the criminalization of sex in high schools. The reality is that there are kids having sex at the age of 12 and 13. It's not a question of "right" or "wrong" but of reality. It happens. It's always happened, and it will continue to happen. No, we don't want it to, but it's going to. The issue that I have is that it seems to be either one way or the other: criminalize all sex, or decriminalize all sex.

Personally, I think the law should be written as 14 & 6. In other words, at 14, sex is legal, so long as both partners are within six years of age of one another until the age of 18, when all bets are off. A 21-year-old, legal to drink, really has no business messing around with a kid of 14. That also lowers the risk of the age of a teacher and a student being within the legal limits.

Regardless of that, I think that it should always be illegal for an employee of the school to have sex with a student. Period. There can be no positive from such a relationship, and the issues that it can create aren't worth the risk.

I don't care what you call it: rape, abuse, assault, seduction, breach of ethics. What matters is that we recognize that even though teenagers are having sex, it's not a healthy situation for this kids to be having that type of relationships with people in a position of authority over them. It's also not healthy for them to be having sex with people so much older than them that there's a very limited possibility of a balance of power.

[merithyn]

There should be criminal sanctions in every single case of student/teacher sex?  What about consensual sex between an 18 year old student and an early 20's first year teacher?

Yes, every incident. Yes, even with an 18-year-old and a teacher in his or her early 20s.

EDIT:  And taking issue with it is one thing, it is healthy.  Are you so outraged that you can't respond without ridiculous arguments?

What the fuck ever. Any argument that I give now is going to be read as 'outraged'. Nothing that I say at this point is going to matter, as you've all decided that I'm such an emotional mess over this whole thing that I can't be reasonable. So why bother?

[sbr]

There should be criminal sanctions in every single case of student/teacher sex?  What about consensual sex between an 18 year old student and an early 20's first year teacher?

Yes, every incident. Yes, even with an 18-year-old and a teacher in his or her early 20s.

EDIT:  And taking issue with it is one thing, it is healthy.  Are you so outraged that you can't respond without ridiculous arguments?

What the fuck ever. Any argument that I give now is going to be read as 'outraged'. Nothing that I say at this point is going to matter, as you've all decided that I'm such an emotional mess over this whole thing that I can't be reasonable. So why bother?

Your initial response to the most recent article Seedy posted was a complete strawman about the author not caring at all about the issue.  That was silly.  As was some of your reactions at the start of the thread.

At other times you have made reasonable thought out arguments, and when you have those have been acknowledged.  Outside of my typical languish jab about you being pissed about the article I don't automatically assume everything you say as outraged, just the outrageous things.

[Ideologue]

I like 14&6, but I'd put the universal age of consent at 16, as does South Carolina, in their infinite legislative wisdom. ( )

Teacher/student relationships are wrong for a different reason than just lack of consent.  I don't think they should be criminalized, under the same reasoning as Lawrence (the state has no business effecting criminal penalties for consensual sex), but it should lead to a lifetime teaching disbarment (or whatever) unless you can affirmatively prove that no undue influence was used and that no corruption took place, in which case a disbarment should still be put into effect, but for a specified period of time.  I'd consider this an administrative matter.

No public censure at least so far as is possible.  Again, assuming no actual crime (under this regime) has been committed.

(P.S. If undue influence can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, this should remain highly criminal.  "Seduction" probably does not go far enough in this case and I'd be happy with the "rape" label for using authority to coerce sex.  Since abuse of authority is the worst kind of crime--it is a crime not only against a fellow citizen but the state, and not only offends the state but subverts it by employing the state apparatus to criminal ends--it should be punished as all such abominations should, by execution.)

[sbr]

This was her point:

I don't believe that all sexual conduct between underage students and teachers should necessarily be classified as rape, and I believe that absent extenuating circumstances, consensual sexual activity between teachers and students should not be criminalized

Is that really THAT outrageous to you?  I have an 19 and 17 (almost 18) year old daughters and I think it is a reasonable argument.  We have once again gone so far into ZOMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN^TM mode that most people can't think logically about this issue.  You can't even take someone who says "our society needs to have an uncensored dialogue about the reality of sex in schools." seriously, you immediately resort to strawman arguments and mockery.

It is REALLY that outrageous to me that at any point anyone could be okay with teachers and their teenaged students having sex. I've said this repeatedly, but no one seems to be listening. The issues at hand here were the age of the student (14 is far too young to be in a sexual relationship with a man over the age of 20, much less over 50) and the fact that it was her teacher. Those are the reasons that I take issue with this particular case.

IN GENERAL, I have a lot of problems with the criminalization of sex in high schools. The reality is that there are kids having sex at the age of 12 and 13. It's not a question of "right" or "wrong" but of reality. It happens. It's always happened, and it will continue to happen. No, we don't want it to, but it's going to. The issue that I have is that it seems to be either one way or the other: criminalize all sex, or decriminalize all sex.

Personally, I think the law should be written as 14 & 6. In other words, at 14, sex is legal, so long as both partners are within six years of age of one another until the age of 18, when all bets are off. A 21-year-old, legal to drink, really has no business messing around with a kid of 14. That also lowers the risk of the age of a teacher and a student being within the legal limits.

Regardless of that, I think that it should always be illegal for an employee of the school to have sex with a student. Period. There can be no positive from such a relationship, and the issues that it can create aren't worth the risk.

I don't care what you call it: rape, abuse, assault, seduction, breach of ethics. What matters is that we recognize that even though teenagers are having sex, it's not a healthy situation for this kids to be having that type of relationships with people in a position of authority over them. It's also not healthy for them to be having sex with people so much older than them that there's a very limited possibility of a balance of power.

Who has said they are "okay" with student/teacher sex?  Outside of Seed and Ed being Seedy and Ed I haven't seen anyone here that was "okay" with it. I think most everyone thinks the teacher should lose their job and at that point 99.9% will never teach again. 

Also you have an issue with black and white all criminal or not criminal, but you want to criminalize 100% of something else?  No gray area there, huh?

[merithyn]

Your initial response to the most recent article Seedy posted was a complete strawman about the author not caring at all about the issue.  That was silly.  As was some of your reactions at the start of the thread.

At other times you have made reasonable thought out arguments, and when you have those have been acknowledged.  Outside of my typical languish jab about you being pissed about the article I don't automatically assume everything you say as outraged, just the outrageous things.

As can be seen by the complete disregard for my real response to you regarding the article, and your only response being to this post.

Of course, the fact that you (and several others) baited me on the article couldn't possibly have been why I didn't bother giving it a real response. You know, since your "real responses" were so well-thought out and provoking.

[Berkut]

There should be criminal sanctions in every single case of student/teacher sex?  What about consensual sex between an 18 year old student and an early 20's first year teacher?

Yes, every incident. Yes, even with an 18-year-old and a teacher in his or her early 20s.

EDIT:  And taking issue with it is one thing, it is healthy.  Are you so outraged that you can't respond without ridiculous arguments?

What the fuck ever. Any argument that I give now is going to be read as 'outraged'. Nothing that I say at this point is going to matter, as you've all decided that I'm such an emotional mess over this whole thing that I can't be reasonable. So why bother?

If you make reasonable arguments, at least some people will presume you are being reasonable.

If you make unreasonable arguments, even ones like "you've all decided .... I can't be reasonable" then people will in fact think you cannot be reasonable.

Nobody has decided you can't be reasonable, people have observed that you are not being reasonable. It's not the same thing.

You aren't a victim.

[DGuller]

On a different note, I'm not sure why we should feel for individuals like Mr. Rambold when people take rape to mean that he forced this 14 year old to have sex.

Not being misleading with words isn't reserved for situations where the victim is sympathetic.

[merithyn]

Who has said they are "okay" with student/teacher sex?  Outside of Seed and Ed being Seedy and Ed I haven't seen anyone here that was "okay" with it. I think most everyone thinks the teacher should lose their job and at that point 99.9% will never teach again. 

You certainly implied it right here:

There should be criminal sanctions in every single case of student/teacher sex?  What about consensual sex between an 18 year old student and an early 20's first year teacher?

Also you have an issue with black and white all criminal or not criminal, but you want to criminalize 100% of something else?  No gray area there, huh?

No gray area, legally, because there can be none. Either it's impossible for an equitable balance of power between a teacher and a teenaged student, or not. THE POSITION OF POWER will always be with the individual who has the right to pass/fail, promote/hold back, or be able to use their position in order to subject another person.

Does that mean that I don't think that a kid can choose to enter into a relationship like that, willingly and knowingly? Yeah, to a degree, it does. I don't think that a kid at 14 years of age (or even 16 or 17 years of age) is capable of fully understanding the complexity of the situation that they are putting themselves into. I say this as the mother of four children, all 14 years of age or older. I've watched them struggle to recognize simple consequences for their actions, much less totally understand all that can and will transpire in a situation like this. In which case, they cannot KNOWINGLY enter into a relationship with an adult teacher, as they aren't capable of fully understanding what's at stake.

[merithyn]

If you make reasonable arguments, at least some people will presume you are being reasonable.

If you make unreasonable arguments, even ones like "you've all decided .... I can't be reasonable" then people will in fact think you cannot be reasonable.

Nobody has decided you can't be reasonable, people have observed that you are not being reasonable. It's not the same thing.

You aren't a victim.

Okay, Berk. Since you say so....

[Ideologue]

Hell, if it's an issue of undue influence (or its converse, sexual bribery), even sex with an 18 (or 25) year old should be criminal.

[merithyn]

Hell, if it's an issue of undue influence (or its converse, sexual bribery), even sex with an 18 (or 25) year old should be criminal.

The difference is the age of reason. By 19 or so, one hopes that the individual is at least capable of completely grasping the consequences of their actions.

[DGuller]

Should bosses who sleep with the people reporting to them be sent to prison as well?  They have a hell of a lot more power over you than teachers do.

[merithyn]

Should bosses who sleep with the people reporting to them be sent to prison as well?  They have a hell of a lot more power over you than teachers do.

If their employees are under-aged, yes.

Apparently I'm being very coy about this or you guys aren't reading what I'm saying. The problem is TWO-FOLD. The students are KIDS and the adults are TEACHERS.