Economic Recovery in America

[HVC]

That's quite a graph. I think I felt my heart sink into my stomach.

I guess I can see how some nationless billionaire nomad with an entirely global perspective on the economy might look at that graph and go "yep, that's hunky dorey!" but I can't imagine how any American with even a teaspoon of nationalism left in him would think that was okay.

people want cheap stuff. American labour is expensive, overseas is cheap. the more jobs you move the more profit you make. That's what I see in the chart anyway.

[fhdz]

Please explain further. I'm not sure how a system that values total social utility would have disappeared its middle class.

It's a little tough to do without a chalkboard. 

Basically, with a downward sloping demand curve (you're familiar with supply and demand curves, right?) and an upward sloping supply curve, the area under the demand curve and above the price line is consumer/buyer surplus utility and the area below the price line and above the demand curve is producer/seller surplus.  If you let the market determine price, at the intersection of supply and demand, you maximize total surplus.  That surplus is free happiness (or money in the case of the supplier).

The consumer side is easier to intuit.  Let's use Beeb, our resident Apple junkie as an example.  He would gladly pay $2,000 for the newest iPhone, he's jonesing that hard.  The fact that Apple sells them for only $500 (no idea on the real price) means that Beeb got $2000 worth of Appleitious consumer satsifaction for only $500.  He got $1,500 of surplus utility.

Mandating a price other than the market price means some of that surplus area is lost.

I'm familiar with supply and demand curves, yes.

I think I understand the argument. I guess my question(s) is (are) a) what other factors could be distorting the market price that the consumer cannot control, and b) while Beeb may have a giant technoboner for Apple products, there are lots of products which he just wants/needs and wants/needs to get a good deal on. I guess my whole problem with looking at it from this standpoint is that such a moral system (because that's what it is, really) ignores the guy who says "fuck Apple products, I'll never be able to own one of those. All I care about is meeting my expenses and taking care of my family." He doesn't get much surplus happiness...and the further his wages decline, he ain't going to get happier.

[HVC]

That's quite a graph. I think I felt my heart sink into my stomach.

I guess I can see how some nationless billionaire nomad with an entirely global perspective on the economy might look at that graph and go "yep, that's hunky dorey!" but I can't imagine how any American with even a teaspoon of nationalism left in him would think that was okay.

The solution is obviously to open up the gates and import even more people from Mexico, like the Democrats and big business types want to do.

Mexican do the jobs no one else wants to do. I don't see an out of work suburbaners (ites?) lining up to pick produce

[fhdz]

Please explain further. I'm not sure how a system that values total social utility would have disappeared its middle class.

It's a little tough to do without a chalkboard. 

Basically, with a downward sloping demand curve (you're familiar with supply and demand curves, right?) and an upward sloping supply curve, the area under the demand curve and above the price line is consumer/buyer surplus utility and the area below the price line and above the demand curve is producer/seller surplus.  If you let the market determine price, at the intersection of supply and demand, you maximize total surplus.  That surplus is free happiness (or money in the case of the supplier).

The consumer side is easier to intuit.  Let's use Beeb, our resident Apple junkie as an example.  He would gladly pay $2,000 for the newest iPhone, he's jonesing that hard.  The fact that Apple sells them for only $500 (no idea on the real price) means that Beeb got $2000 worth of Appleitious consumer satsifaction for only $500.  He got $1,500 of surplus utility.

Mandating a price other than the market price means some of that surplus area is lost.

The question is what the labor demand curve looks like for low wage workers.

Yes, thank you, I think that's what I was getting at in my roundabout layman's way.

[Caliga]

I like Mexicans and I want more of them here.  Here's why:

1. I like tacos
2. I like low cost roofing and gardening
3.  Mexican chicks can be quite HOTT
4.  Hybrid vigor (see 3)

[derspiess]

Mexican do the jobs no one else wants to do. I don't see an out of work suburbaners (ites?) lining up to pick produce

They would if it paid well enough.

[HVC]

Mexican do the jobs no one else wants to do. I don't see an out of work suburbaners (ites?) lining up to pick produce

They would if it paid well enough.

it'll never pay well enough. unless you want to pay 10 bucks for an apple.

[derspiess]

I like Mexicans and I want more of them here.  Here's why:

1. I like tacos
2. I like low cost roofing and gardening
3.  Mexican chicks can be quite HOTT
4.  Hybrid vigor (see 3)

I like Mexicans, but I'd rather not keep importing their underclass.  I'd like to get more educated, skilled Mexicans.

[fhdz]

Mexican do the jobs no one else wants to do. I don't see an out of work suburbaners (ites?) lining up to pick produce

They would if it paid well enough.

There we go! So: conservatives should support a raise in the minimum wage because it keeps Mexican immigrants out.

[CountDeMoney]

That's quite a graph. I think I felt my heart sink into my stomach.

I guess I can see how some nationless billionaire nomad with an entirely global perspective on the economy might look at that graph and go "yep, that's hunky dorey!" but I can't imagine how any American with even a teaspoon of nationalism left in him would think that was okay.

That graph is what America wants.  That's the way it is, we like it that way and we're not going to change it.  End of story.

[Caliga]

I'd like to get more educated, skilled Mexicans.

more what now?

[HVC]

I like Mexicans and I want more of them here.  Here's why:

1. I like tacos
2. I like low cost roofing and gardening
3.  Mexican chicks can be quite HOTT
4.  Hybrid vigor (see 3)

I like Mexicans, but I'd rather not keep importing their underclass.  I'd like to get more educated, skilled Mexicans.

at least their underclass are hard workers. I don't get the illegal immigrant hate. they work hard. I get the eurohate with the generations of welfare squatters, but illegal immigrants in the states get no benefits, right?

[fhdz]

That's quite a graph. I think I felt my heart sink into my stomach.

I guess I can see how some nationless billionaire nomad with an entirely global perspective on the economy might look at that graph and go "yep, that's hunky dorey!" but I can't imagine how any American with even a teaspoon of nationalism left in him would think that was okay.

That graph is what America wants.  That's the way it is, we like it that way and we're not going to change it.  End of story.

If so, then we are an awful people, and we should well deserve the eventual collapse of our empire.

[Razgovory]

That's quite a graph. I think I felt my heart sink into my stomach.

I guess I can see how some nationless billionaire nomad with an entirely global perspective on the economy might look at that graph and go "yep, that's hunky dorey!" but I can't imagine how any American with even a teaspoon of nationalism left in him would think that was okay.

That graph is what America wants.  That's the way it is, we like it that way and we're not going to change it.  End of story.

If so, then we are an awful people, and we should well deserve the eventual collapse of our empire.

Just misinformed.  Well sure there are some people who want that, but most do not.

[fhdz]

The fact of the matter is that while wages have been virtually stagnant for the bottom 90% of workers over the last 40 years, the wages of minimum wage earners have declined in absolute terms by about 1/3. Why? And what sort of economic system sees this as not just "unavoidable" but actually beneficial?

Women.

Do go on.

They entered the workforce in large numbers, which lowered the "need" to raise wages.

Hmm.