Crusader Kings 2 Redux

[Tamas]

why are the jews such a crucial matter for you people? An entire set of sub-mechanics from pogroms during epidemics to "all joos are bankers, have them give lotsa bonuses", not to mention expelling them and them reappearing somewhere else... Way too much hassle, and at the end of the day as much people would criticize it as who would like it, and it would raise questions on why not other ethnic movings are simulated, etc.


Plus you would have jewish nobles and patricians appearing, their provinces converting to jewish, or jews culture disappearing too fast due to non-landed jewish court members taking religion/culture of their lieges and wards, etc.

Don't be the Paradox crowd. You need to look at stuff like this from the gamesystem's point of view.

[Valmy]

why are the jews such a crucial matter for you people?

It is not crucial.  It is just puzzling that so much fantasy crap and garbage gets included while a very obvious and historically impactful thing is left out.

[The Brain]

Which is morally worse: exterminating the Jews or never creating them in the first place? I can see arguments for both.

[The Minsky Moment]

Have the "Expel the Jews!" option be an overwhelmingly terrible choice to make which messes up your economy severely for some short term gain with the clergy?

Explusions also involved confiscation of property; they were a way to raise quick money. And because of the common role of Jews as fiscal agents, explusions were often quite popular as well. There were good reasons why Christian monarchs either refused to admit Jews or expelled them and to be honest to the period, P-dox would have to model that.  Not to mention what would be the gameplay point of having a mechanism where there is only one good option?

[garbon]

Have the "Expel the Jews!" option be an overwhelmingly terrible choice to make which messes up your economy severely for some short term gain with the clergy?

Explusions also involved confiscation of property; they were a way to raise quick money. And because of the common role of Jews as fiscal agents, explusions were often quite popular as well. There were good reasons why Christian monarchs either refused to admit Jews or expelled them and to be honest to the period, P-dox would have to model that.  Not to mention what would be the gameplay point of having a mechanism where there is only one good option?

I don't really understand the argument that they have to model it. They didn't in CK1 (where admittedly Jews were barely modeled but they were present).

[Valmy]

Explusions also involved confiscation of property; they were a way to raise quick money. And because of the common role of Jews as fiscal agents, explusions were often quite popular as well. There were good reasons why Christian monarchs either refused to admit Jews or expelled them and to be honest to the period, P-dox would have to model that.  Not to mention what would be the gameplay point of having a mechanism where there is only one good option?

If Jews were supposedly these fiscal powerhouses isn't it better in the longterm to keep them around?

[garbon]

Anyone see the Seljuks enter Persia yet?

[Maximus]

Explusions also involved confiscation of property; they were a way to raise quick money. And because of the common role of Jews as fiscal agents, explusions were often quite popular as well. There were good reasons why Christian monarchs either refused to admit Jews or expelled them and to be honest to the period, P-dox would have to model that.  Not to mention what would be the gameplay point of having a mechanism where there is only one good option?

If Jews were supposedly these fiscal powerhouses isn't it better in the longterm to keep them around?

Not everyone thinks long term.

I saw a mod for CK2 that implemented this pretty well. Ghettos were buildings in certain cities. They couldn't be built but I think they could grow by event. They provided tax income. They also gave you access to the pogrom descision which removed them, but gave you a chunk of cash.

I could see this being extended to jewish advisers and the like.

[Grallon]

...

I saw a mod for CK2 that implemented this pretty well. Ghettos were buildings in certain cities. They couldn't be built but I think they could grow by event. They provided tax income. They also gave you access to the pogrom descision which removed them, but gave you a chunk of cash.

I could see this being extended to jewish advisers and the like.

Yes they are implemented thus in 'The Prince and the Thane' - the mod I'm associated with.  The initial structures are written directly in the province files at game start and then other building chains depend on those.




G.

[The Minsky Moment]

If Jews were supposedly these fiscal powerhouses isn't it better in the longterm to keep them around?

Fiscal powerhouses would be an exaggeration. 
Court Jews filled a useful niche at a time when kingdoms had very little in the way of bureaucracy or fiscal machinery, and little or no access to credit.
By the end of the 13th century, however, England and France were both developing rudimentary administrations, and Italian bankers were expanding into western Europe.  Within a 20 year period around the turn of the century, both kingdoms expelled all their Jews

[Tamas]

err, I can apparently Holy War Catholics as Orthodox. Is that WAD or I messed up my cb_types file?

[The Brain]

err, I can apparently Holy War Catholics as Orthodox. Is that WAD or I messed up my cb_types file?

Why wouldn't you be able to?

[Tamas]

err, I can apparently Holy War Catholics as Orthodox. Is that WAD or I messed up my cb_types file?

Why wouldn't you be able to?

Why would I?

[The Brain]

err, I can apparently Holy War Catholics as Orthodox. Is that WAD or I messed up my cb_types file?

Why wouldn't you be able to?

Why would I?

Why not?

[Tamas]

But why?