ICE misconduct megathread (Immigration "enforcement" in the US)

[Tamas]

Yeah we had no overwhelming propaganda through the media before social media, what the hell are you guys smoking. Fox News and that's not even a state one.

With social media people can connect and organise.

If that was so inconsequential like you claim, autocracies wouldn't be limiting access to it.

If you don't see the difference, I'm not sure I can explain it to you

I now know how old you are, you post like you are a lot younger because you seem to not know the world before the Internet.

This was really condescending. I started typing a reply out but if you think somebody who grew up in a fucking village that was until his early teens behind the fucking Iron Curtain can't remember what life was without the Internet, then that prices your opinion in, not mine.

Plus, you are not just arguing with me but with the rules of Russia, China, Iran and other similar places which curtail social media and Internet access to control dissent.

Take this latest murder. How would YOU (or as a matter of fact, state authorities) would have seen evidence of what actually happened if it wasn't for the extremely easy access mobile technology and Internet (social media) offers individuals to record and share that evidence? Maybe if somebody had a camera ICE couldn't confiscate, it might had found itself to some TV station that wasn't too afraid of legal troubles for showing the footage. Or it would had eventually made it's way to you via some Internet bulletin boards or forums if you want to focus on social media as this non-utility.

And eye witness accounts of course. We would have read the government's version and the witnesses taking to the press, and then we would have the speculation, probably with Zoupa in full anti-establishment zeal arguing with "impartial logical mode" Yi on the other side, with the rest of us chipping in.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah we had no overwhelming propaganda through the media before social media, what the hell are you guys smoking. Fox News and that's not even a state one.

With social media people can connect and organise.

If that was so inconsequential like you claim, autocracies wouldn't be limiting access to it.

If you don't see the difference, I'm not sure I can explain it to you

I now know how old you are, you post like you are a lot younger because you seem to not know the world before the Internet.

This was really condescending. I started typing a reply out but if you think somebody who grew up in a fucking village that was until his early teens behind the fucking Iron Curtain can't remember what life was without the Internet, then that prices your opinion in, not mine.

Plus, you are not just arguing with me but with the rules of Russia, China, Iran and other similar places which curtail social media and Internet access to control dissent.

Take this latest murder. How would YOU (or as a matter of fact, state authorities) would have seen evidence of what actually happened if it wasn't for the extremely easy access mobile technology and Internet (social media) offers individuals to record and share that evidence? Maybe if somebody had a camera ICE couldn't confiscate, it might had found itself to some TV station that wasn't too afraid of legal troubles for showing the footage. Or it would had eventually made it's way to you via some Internet bulletin boards or forums if you want to focus on social media as this non-utility.

And eye witness accounts of course. We would have read the government's version and the witnesses taking to the press, and then we would have the speculation, probably with Zoupa in full anti-establishment zeal arguing with "impartial logical mode" Yi on the other side, with the rest of us chipping in.

You asked what people were smoking, you kind of deserved it

[Jacob]

On social media, I agree that it can be used to organize.

However, I think that if the fascists control it it can also be used to surveil and shape public opinion to a high degree of efficiency. The Chinese are quite good at it, for example.

Given that the American social media oligarchs are aligned with the Trumpists, I am not optimistic about the long term potential for social media to serve as a locus of resistance in the US. I could be wrong, though.

[DGuller]

In the long run, I think social media would be a more effective tool for authoritarians than for individuals seeking freedom.  It had its early successes before the more clever authoritarians caught on and taught the less clever authoritarians their tricks.

[frunk]

A local example, when North Carolina had its ICE surge members of several local social media groups were reporting on and tracking ICE's activities.  Shortly after this started they were flooded by new accounts shouting them down and attacking them for being un-American.  Just about all of those groups either shut down, became private or declared that politics could no longer be discussed on them.

[Tamas]

The two killings. Are you all claiming that we as the general public would have seen evidence of what has happened, without social media? (or the easy cross-connectivity technology provides, if you will, but that is not detachable from social media as it's the same phenomenon).

[Jacob]

No I don't think anyone is claiming that. I think the claim is that even as we know, social media manipulation undermines the power of that knowledge.

It could be wrong though.

[Sophie Scholl]

For what its worth, Tamas, I fully agree with you. Without modern camera phones and social media to share said video footage, the FBI/ICE/DHS would have had a monopoly on the "truth" and the legacy media would have just accepted their version and aired/published/reported on it. Probably word for word like they do with most police and government statements. Passive voice and all.

[Zoupa]

Agreed but on aggregate I'm not sure the good outweighs the bad when it comes to social media.

[Tamas]

Agreed but on aggregate I'm not sure the good outweighs the bad when it comes to social media.

That's because you live in a free society.

A regime like Hungary which I know in detail has been perfectly able to brainwash a large swath of the population and just dominate and control discourse without social media as their prime weapon. Yes they use it but they didn't need it.

But there is no wide-reach independent media in Hungary, hasn't been for about a decade, outside of YouTube and social media. I expect the situation is the same in other hybrid regimes as well and so it will be in the US, too.

[garbon]

Agreed but on aggregate I'm not sure the good outweighs the bad when it comes to social media.

That's because you live in a free society.

A regime like Hungary which I know in detail has been perfectly able to brainwash a large swath of the population and just dominate and control discourse without social media as their prime weapon. Yes they use it but they didn't need it.

But there is no wide-reach independent media in Hungary, hasn't been for about a decade, outside of YouTube and social media. I expect the situation is the same in other hybrid regimes as well and so it will be in the US, too.

If the US did what you are saying, there is no reason they would allow free speech on social media.

[Tamas]

Well yeah because it's too effective a tool to be left alone. That's my point. It's a net good that we have it where and when we have it. A modern state can absolutely brainwash without it but you can't just share your regime-damning evidence with the world at a push of a button without it.

Another example: Gaza, no Internet blackout by Israel, lots of grim details and photos got out. Iran? Internet blackout and we are only guessing what was happening.

[Tamas]

"where is the gun?!"
https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/s/Oqqn7PHGp4

[Tamas]

So, Americans, what's your take gun-culture wise, how are the protestors with a gun permit likely to respond to this? Will they be more likely to leave their guns home in the hope that will increase their chances of walking away without being summarily executed for standing somewhere, or the opposite - seeing how they can get killed even if they are having their hands high up in the air, will they be more likely to brandish their gun and open fire if ICE approaches them?

[DGuller]

So, Americans, what's your take gun-culture wise, how are the protestors with a gun permit likely to respond to this? Will they be more likely to leave their guns home in the hope that will increase their chances of walking away without being summarily executed for standing somewhere, or the opposite - seeing how they can get killed even if they are having their hands high up in the air, will they be more likely to brandish their gun and open fire if ICE approaches them?

Legal gun owners will generally not brandish guns, since that is a crime pretty much anywhere even when facing a threat, whether you're licensed or not.