US - Greenland Crisis Thread

[Zoupa]

The DOJ, FBI and Congress have already failed. I guess all your marbles are on the november elections.

[Admiral Yi]

The DOJ, FBI and Congress have already failed. I guess all your marbles are on the november elections.

And the courts. Congress has not totally failed. Some members fired warning shots about Greenland.

[Jacob]

I still allow myself to hope that the American institutions Admiral Yi mention will save the US from a compete descent into fascism, though I'm absolutely fine demonstrations and other manifestations of "people power".

[crazy canuck]

I still allow myself to hope that the American institutions Admiral Yi mention will save the US from a compete descent into fascism, though I'm absolutely fine demonstrations and other manifestations of "people power".

The American institution he mentioned is the courts. You have hope about the courts that Trump has infiltrated with his appointments?

You are more than just a glass half full kind of guy

[Oexmelin]

It's quite possible that these institutions hold. My point is always that these institutions do not exist in a vacuum, removed from civil society. It will be easier for them to hold if people know that someone out there finds something abhorrent. Institutions normalize: that's what they do, and it's frighteningly easy to get carried by the stream of the routine. They are also slow. It's part of the design: slowness allows for input. It's part of the problem: slowness allows them to be bypassed by fascists, who all celebrate swiftness.

In these circumstances, cowardice is easier when you feel you are alone. Resisting authoritarian impulse within institutions is easier when you know you have people who feel like you do, or whose passion, and slogans, and dedication, can also help you shape your own idea about the right and the wrong, not just the legal and the illegal.

ICE is beyond saving: that institution is much too steeped into authoritarianism. But there will be a time when the army may be asked to fire on a crowd, or to invade Denmark; a time when judges will be told the desired outcome of a trial; a moment when a Member of Congress will be offered a bribe, or cowed into silence or compliance. That time is upon us.

This is why I am concerned when people attempt to delegitimize protests, in the hope that normalcy will prevail on its own, or that they frighten the good people. Waiting for institutions to save you while they are being actively subverted leaves you defenceless when the outcome isn't what you were hoping for - because they you are left with a perverted doubt that, maybe, there's a legitimate reason why it didn't work. The Biden mandate should have imparted that lesson, more than once.

[Jacob]

Agreed completely Oex. As usual.

[The Minsky Moment]

Well Americans haven't done the nationwide mass protest game at the level of the top Euro contenders. But Minnesotans have stepped up big time with grass roots mobilization on the street level.  The people have taken control of the narrative.

[Oexmelin]

This has indeed given me hope.

But I have remained worried, as we have seen such protests before, and they tend to lose steam. Plus, I have witnessed many commentators and colleagues sigh yet another sigh of relief (good old "this is proof this isn't us"), which I fear may again lead to premature demobilization (and pinning their hopes on the electoral process).

[Admiral Yi]

I have no desire to delegitimize all protests.  I revere classical nonviolent protests such as Gandhi and MLK.

I have a great deal of contempt for demonstrations that try to impose a minority's will on a democratic majority. I have even more contempt for protests that hurl abuse at servants of the state performing lawful duties. Like the people who spit on soldiers returning from Vietnam.  Like people arrested for DUI screaming at cops about their dick size.  That's coward's courage, cosplaying at picking  a fight with people you know can't fight back.

If you think those protests will positively impact the midterms, knock yourself out.  I think they are counter productive.

[Oexmelin]

I fear "lawful duties" are getting awfully capacious in the US, and may continue to grow in scope.

The peaceful protest you revere were conducted by people who walked side by side, and fought alongside, with people who got shot, beaten, spat on, arrested, tortured, by servants of the state performing their lawful duties. I am not sure your current stance would have led you walking side by side with your heroes.

[Oexmelin]

Vaguely related: It looks increasingly like the "spat-upon Vietnam vet" is a convenient political myth that got bandied about to delegitimize anti-war protests during the late 60s and got reactivated during the Gulf War in the 90s.

[Admiral Yi]

I fear "lawful duties" are getting awfully capacious in the US, and may continue to grow in scope.

The peaceful protest you revere were conducted by people who walked side by side, and fought alongside, with people who got shot, beaten, spat on, arrested, tortured, by servants of the state performing their lawful duties. I am not sure your current stance would have led you walking side by side with your heroes.

Do you mean fought literally or figuratively?

I don't if I would have taken a beating for Indian independence or black voting rights either.  I don't know if you  would have. Either way I fail to see the relevance.

[Oexmelin]

Being a coward who admires the courage of others is different from being someone whose standards for legitimate protest are so high that no actual, real protest, would ever meet them. The actual protests in Selma, or Montgomery, or DC, are not the glossy, clear-cut affair that a retrospective view affords us. They were much messier, and people were getting tear-gassed, and beaten; civil war activists were also shouting, and insulting, and undignified. At some point, one has to commit, even if there is a risk that a protest may not turn out to be the perfect protest.

My point is that your standards may lead you to never recognize the sort of protests you claim to admire if they ever happened close to you.

(Also, if I may, I know there's a whole subgenre of videos of idiots, and sovereign citizens, and civil rights auditors harvesting clicks - as in every algorithmic rabbit holes, they can warp our perceptions).

[Admiral Yi]

Hollywood taught me on at least one occaisson Indian protestors beat policemen to death. It also taught me Gandhi was dismayed. I think he went on a hunger strike.

I googled "civil rights protestors shouting insults" and all I got was two mentions of a diner sit in where whites abused the protestors.

[celedhring]

I feel like a lot of people don't really get Ghandi's peaceful resistance, and that Yi wouldn't approve of it if it was really deployed in the US. It does involve breaking the law if you believe the law is unjust, as long as you do it peacefully. And keep doing it persistently (and massively) until the other side has to chose between violence or the law.

In this case, it would involve people physically obstructing ICE and forcing them to exercise violence to carry out their duties. Given that they are shotting people that are even getting out of the way, we know how that would end.

For what is worth, all the protest calls I'm seeing floating around don't call for breaking the law (many, in fact, also inform protestors of what they can or can't legally do). I'm not saying they should break the law - here I am sitting on my couch in a geopolitically irrelevant Euro nation - but that the Ghandi method is much more disruptive than that.