What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Razgovory]

We probably wouldn't have these riots were it not for the internet and antizionism would not be as big a thing in the West.  So yeah, a lot of extremism.

The riots would stop if ICE would only release the hostages.

You still haven't given me an address to send my stuff.  You demanded my stuff a few months ago in what I assume to be commentary on Settler Colonialism, the system from which you derive all your wealth.  How it is wrong for the Israeli to do what you do.  Anyway, I haven't learned my lesson so you can still get my paltry belongings.


You have a real opportunity to get my filthy chair.  I paid 100 bucks on this and was badly cheated, but you can have it!  Just got to pay shipping fees.  What better way to demonstrate your superiority over the American filth and get back at Trump than to take the belongings of a poor American who despises Trump?  This is your chance to exploit me, and this is one of the core issues here.  Exploitation of the poor.  We need these people in the country to work for us, to do our menial jobs, to be exploited.  So exploit!  That is what your class does, doesn't it?

[HVC]

Now the majority of left-Wing Americans are antizionist and the internet may have played a major role in this.  We've had three attacks on Jews in as many months.  This wouldn't have happened 20 years ago.  I mean look at Languish, we were generally pro Zionist during the 2nd intifada, and now we have rather decisively shifted.  Radicalism isn't just something that happens to other people.

is it possible that continued actions by Israel might lead to the changing of minds?

[Razgovory]

Now the majority of left-Wing Americans are antizionist and the internet may have played a major role in this.  We've had three attacks on Jews in as many months.  This wouldn't have happened 20 years ago.  I mean look at Languish, we were generally pro Zionist during the 2nd intifada, and now we have rather decisively shifted.  Radicalism isn't just something that happens to other people.

is it possible that continued actions by Israel might lead to the changing of minds?

Possibly, but the shift started about 15 years ago.  So the continued action by Israel was that it has existed over that period of time.

[Zoupa]

We probably wouldn't have these riots were it not for the internet and antizionism would not be as big a thing in the West.  So yeah, a lot of extremism.

The riots would stop if ICE would only release the hostages.

You still haven't given me an address to send my stuff.  You demanded my stuff a few months ago in what I assume to be commentary on Settler Colonialism, the system from which you derive all your wealth.  How it is wrong for the Israeli to do what you do.  Anyway, I haven't learned my lesson so you can still get my paltry belongings.

You have a real opportunity to get my filthy chair.  I paid 100 bucks on this and was badly cheated, but you can have it!  Just got to pay shipping fees.  What better way to demonstrate your superiority over the American filth and get back at Trump than to take the belongings of a poor American who despises Trump?  This is your chance to exploit me, and this is one of the core issues here.  Exploitation of the poor.  We need these people in the country to work for us, to do our menial jobs, to be exploited.  So exploit!  That is what your class does, doesn't it?

Thanks, I'll pass. Remember to take your meds.

[Razgovory]

Do you think bring up my meds hurts me?

[Zoupa]

No, and that was not my intention either.

[Sheilbh]

Well, take this recent protest.  What is being protested?  The most common thing I see is "get rid of ICE".  This is not a reasonable demand.  We still need border enforcement, and the US government does need to deport people.  It would really disrupt things if the US increased it's population by 10 million a year through immigration.  I think Trump intentionally provokes these sort of things to get Democrats to adopt unpopular, and idiotic positions.

I'd go almost in the opposite direction.

I totally agree that borders need to be enforced and people without a lawful right to be in a country should be deported. I'm a believer in a liberal, open and transparent immigration system - including specific routes for (all) refugees. I think a precondition of a liberal approach is public trust in borders and immigration enforcement.

However I think it does need to be done in a lawful and consistent way (again, in my view, a necessary precondition of all law enforcement in a democratic society).

My view of ICE and the Trump administration's approach on this is that it is lawless, negligent, arbitrary. That your legal status may or may not be relative, an individual's immigration history may or may not determine whether they'll be deported and where to. I think that is intolerable and I'm not convinced ICE can be redeemed. And I think part of this is mindset/culture within an agency. I think there is a wider cultural issue with American law enforcement from the language and attitudes I see being reported - I'm not sure if it's downstream of the, in my view, wrong emphasis of "warrior"-ness in veterans from the armed forces or something else but it feels dangerously separatist/paramilitary in my view.

I would actually argue the opposite that ICE needs to be abolished in order to have strong, robust, consistent, lawful immigration enforcement.

And until then, as I said earlier, my view is there's a very strong case for non-violent civil disobedience.

[Razgovory]

If we abolish ICE and hire all new people (that would be pretty difficult), we're going to have people who look and act like the old ones.  The people who are attracted to these positions tend to be fairly similar.  Unless we draft people into to ICE the same type of people will always show up.  I don't see abolishing ICE as viable.  This is "Defund the police" all over again.  You'd think we learned our lesson here, but no.  Since Trump and his people will say we are radical anyway we may as well take the worst, least popular positions possible.

I know some of the stuff Trump has done was unlawful, but I don't know how much of what the administration is doing is unlawful.  Were the recent raids in LA unlawful?  I haven't seen any evidence of that.  Some people who are in this country have pending refugee cases, I don't know how many.  Others are simply here illegally.  Since the wait time for refugee hearing is 4+ years, and I know CC doesn't want to hear this, the potential for abuse is rife.  To me the solution is simply to create a large number of temporary immigration courts to process the backlog.  There is probably a reason why we don't do this, but I don't know what it is.

This is one of the main issues we lost to Trump on, so the majority of Americans are not really with the Democrats here.  Hell, the majority of Hispanics are not with us on this issue.  So we really need to ask ourselves "What the fuck are we doing" and "Why are we doing it".

[Sheilbh]

If we abolish ICE and hire all new people (that would be pretty difficult), we're going to have people who look and act like the old ones.  The people who are attracted to these positions tend to be fairly similar.  Unless we draft people into to ICE the same type of people will always show up.  I don't see abolishing ICE as viable.  This is "Defund the police" all over again.  You'd think we learned our lesson here, but no.  Since Trump and his people will say we are radical anyway we may as well take the worst, least popular positions possible.

To be clear on this I've not followed anything that's been going on in LA - I've been on holiday. And it's not really about the politics or how to win or immigration or any of that for me - I have separate thoughts on that.

And I don't agree that the way ICE is behaving is somehow a reflection of the innate characteristics of people in that type of job - or that that's the case of any bit of law enforcement or any other bit of the state. It's like dismissing corruption or  If it was just a reflection of the core human nature of the people in those roles then there would never be any reason to ever do public sector reform because it makes no difference. I don't agree with that - I think reform is possible and that organisations are shaped by their leadership, their institutional culture etc.

I think there are numerous examples of out of control state agencies that have been successfully reformed. The way Trump is using it - reports that ICE are being set targets of numbers to deport - and the cover they've received, I'm not sure if it is reformable or if you actually need to start again with people with clean hands hired, for example, from other well-functioning law enforcement agencies.

I know some of the stuff Trump has done was unlawful, but I don't know how much of what the administration is doing is unlawful.  Were the recent raids in LA unlawful?  I haven't seen any evidence of that.  Some people who are in this country have pending refugee cases, I don't know how many.  Others are simply here illegally.  Since the wait time for refugee hearing is 4+ years, and I know CC doesn't want to hear this, the potential for abuse is rife.  To me the solution is simply to create a large number of temporary immigration courts to process the backlog.  There is probably a reason why we don't do this, but I don't know what it is.

As I said to Yi - I don't think the specifics matters. That to me is diving right to the heart of the peripheral.

If you have an organisation that is being given deportation number targets, seizing people on the streets, disappearing them to foreign jurisdictions and refusing to comply with court (including Supreme Court) habeas corpus orders then you are way past the point where it's important to establish the facts of each case. I don't think this is about immigration - I think it is about whether you've got the rule of law or not and that's worth robustly fighting for.

[Jacob]

One of the things that is interesting about both of you is how you tend to agree with the Trumpist arguments and their framing of the debate, yet oppose Trump.

I'm glad you oppose Trump, but I don't understand why.

You are demonstrating incredibly poor observational skills.  I have disagreed, on the record, with an infinity of Trumpist arguments.

What I also disagree with are anti Trumpist myths.  A lie by the good guys is still a lie.

Okay, I think I see your point of view.

[Razgovory]

We've had abolish the abolish ICE movement prior to Trump's second term, and frankly I don't know if ICE is out of control.  Are their actions illegal?  In LA I haven't seen any real evidence of that.  Is Trump abusing his powers, yes, but that isn't really ICE's fault.  They are being given quotas by the Trump administration but that is not itself illegal. 

Taking extreme, unpopular positions has real consequences.  That's how we ended up with Trump in the first place.  Was "No votes for Genocide Joe and Copmala" really worth Ukrainian independence?  I do not think so.

[grumbler]

The problem that I see with ICE is that it has been poisoned from the start. The US used to have a Customs Service under the Department of the Treasury for regulating the import of goods, and a Immigration and Naturalization Service under the Department of Justice, to regulate the arrival of people and serve as the monitor for foreigners in the US.  Neither was a warrior service, and neither was an anti-terrorist service. 

Then, 9/11 happened, and the US Congress went insane. It created the Department of Homeland Security, which absorbed USCS and INS and converted them into warrior services  tasked to stop terrorism at all costs. They became ICE. They went from being civil servants enforcing laws to frontline warriors against terrorism. They became a hammer and all of their problems looked like nails.

ICE is a problem, but Homeland Security is the problem. DHS is the classic "cure that is worse than the disease."

[Admiral Yi]

Armed agents putting handcuffs on illegal immigrants is not a new thing.

[Zoupa]

Trump one deported less folks per year than Obama.

Trump two is deporting less folks (pro-rata) than Biden.

Folks are protesting the process, not the principle.

[HVC]

Like grumbler said, ICE has been around since the early 2000. Have they ramped their tactics up or is it getting coverage now since it's trump? Tons of immigrants were deported under Obama and Biden, surely ICE was involved then too?