What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Admiral Yi]

Abrego Garcia and anyone else with withholding of deportation does have a legal right to reside in the US unless the government finds a valid destination willing to take him. For example, they are eligible for an EAD (right to work).

OK, and every illegal who has not recieved a withholding of removal is also a legal resident until they've had a deportation hearing.

How about we agree to disagree.

[DGuller]

We're discussing the legal realities of refugees, but what about the practical realities?  My impression is that a refugee status is widely abused, precisely because it requires a long process to be sent back even if the claim is unsuccessful.  That practical reality, if true, would also play into the "we're being played for chumps" narrative by MAGA.

[crazy canuck]

Yet another uninformed impression vomited into the modern public square.  If I could go back in time I would shoot the internet. 

[Tamas]

Yet another uninformed impression vomited into the modern public square.  If I could go back in time I would shoot the internet. 

On a broader level I disagree with the sentiment. In a lot of countries dissent of opinion can only be shared thanks to the Internet. Hungarian independent media, other oppressed societies, the suffering of Gazans etc.

There are immense pros to it even in politics despite the significant cons.

[Razgovory]

Yet another uninformed impression vomited into the modern public square.  If I could go back in time I would shoot the internet. 

Jesus, you really are becoming a major asshole.

[Jacob]

I can't really put it into words, but it's also fascinating to me to see Raz's evolving "takes".

I agree that it's interesting.  He's developing self esteem and assertiveness by deriving opinions from first principles and defending those opinions.  He's me.

One of the things that is interesting about both of you is how you tend to agree with the Trumpist arguments and their framing of the debate, yet oppose Trump.

I'm glad you oppose Trump, but I don't understand why.

[Razgovory]

I can't really put it into words, but it's also fascinating to me to see Raz's evolving "takes".

I agree that it's interesting.  He's developing self esteem and assertiveness by deriving opinions from first principles and defending those opinions.  He's me.

One of the things that is interesting about both of you is how you tend to agree with the Trumpist arguments and their framing of the debate, yet oppose Trump.

I'm glad you oppose Trump, but I don't understand why.

Well, take this recent protest.  What is being protested?  The most common thing I see is "get rid of ICE".  This is not a reasonable demand.  We still need border enforcement, and the US government does need to deport people.  It would really disrupt things if the US increased it's population by 10 million a year through immigration.  I think Trump intentionally provokes these sort of things to get Democrats to adopt unpopular, and idiotic positions.

[celedhring]

ICE has barely been around for 20 years. Apparently you were able to handle immigration without creating a policing body staffed by sociopaths.

[grumbler]

I've not seen anyone arguing against having border controls.  The most common protest I've seen is that ICE (and the administration as a whole) is acting in a self-defeating heavy-handed manner in order to just maximize the numbers of people detained. They are not focusing on those with criminal records, as they claimed; they are instead detaining those easiest to find - those in jobs, many of which are following the rules.

A NYT reporter visited an ICE substation in Miami, where people awaiting their asylum hearings were checking in as directed.  They were being detained for deportation as a result of following the rules.

The claim that Democrats are in favor of increasing "[the US] population by 10 million a year through immigration" is false and a poor justification for any conclusions about this crisis.

[bogh]

Whatever the merit of the protests, surely the interesting and important part is the response of the administration? Whether you agree with the protestors or not, clearly they are the least impactful and relevant party to the conflict.

[Tamas]

I admit all I know about it is that protests started because of ICE raids. I fully believe they started because ICE overstepped and probably harassed people who actually are legally in the country and/or were brutal enough in their hunt for illegals that the community those illegals are a part of rose to their defense.

But also I am fairly confident the protesters were (and likely still is, seeing how they are not growing outside of that part of LA) motivated by their intention to protect people (themselves and/or others) from ICE actions, not to counter the fascist coup in general.

[Razgovory]

ICE has barely been around for 20 years. Apparently you were able to handle immigration without creating a policing body staffed by sociopaths.

We've had a border control longer than that.  I don't think there was any massive change in personnel when we changed the name to ICE.

[garbon]

I admit all I know about it is that protests started because of ICE raids. I fully believe they started because ICE overstepped and probably harassed people who actually are legally in the country and/or were brutal enough in their hunt for illegals that the community those illegals are a part of rose to their defense.

But also I am fairly confident the protesters were (and likely still is, seeing how they are not growing outside of that part of LA) motivated by their intention to protect people (themselves and/or others) from ICE actions, not to counter the fascist coup in general.

There are protests taking place now in other US cities.

[Razgovory]

I've not seen anyone arguing against having border controls.  The most common protest I've seen is that ICE (and the administration as a whole) is acting in a self-defeating heavy-handed manner in order to just maximize the numbers of people detained. They are not focusing on those with criminal records, as they claimed; they are instead detaining those easiest to find - those in jobs, many of which are following the rules.

A NYT reporter visited an ICE substation in Miami, where people awaiting their asylum hearings were checking in as directed.  They were being detained for deportation as a result of following the rules.

The claim that Democrats are in favor of increasing "[the US] population by 10 million a year through immigration" is false and a poor justification for any conclusions about this crisis.

The most common demand is ICE out of LA.  In fact, I found a website:
http://iceoutofla.org/en/about-us/

The ICE out of LA Coalition is composed of community members from around Los Angeles County, including labor, faith, grassroots, legal, policy, and civil rights organizations, united in opposition to deportations and the criminalization of migrants that continue to disrupt our communities. We aim to create an open source campaign where people push for ICE out of LA and full civil and human rights through diverse and innovative tactics.

We envision Los Angeles County as a leader in the humanization and decriminalization of immigrants and a champion for human rights.

Again, this is not reasonable.  We still need to have deportations, and giving everyone who shows up to LA "full civil rights", which would include voting, is not a good idea.

Nobody claimed 10 million immigrants a year but me.  If we were to really abolish ICE we would have something like that.  I don't think it is sustainable.

[grumbler]

I've not seen anyone arguing against having border controls.  The most common protest I've seen is that ICE (and the administration as a whole) is acting in a self-defeating heavy-handed manner in order to just maximize the numbers of people detained. They are not focusing on those with criminal records, as they claimed; they are instead detaining those easiest to find - those in jobs, many of which are following the rules.

A NYT reporter visited an ICE substation in Miami, where people awaiting their asylum hearings were checking in as directed.  They were being detained for deportation as a result of following the rules.

The claim that Democrats are in favor of increasing "[the US] population by 10 million a year through immigration" is false and a poor justification for any conclusions about this crisis.

The most common demand is ICE out of LA.  In fact, I found a website:
http://iceoutofla.org/en/about-us/

The ICE out of LA Coalition is composed of community members from around Los Angeles County, including labor, faith, grassroots, legal, policy, and civil rights organizations, united in opposition to deportations and the criminalization of migrants that continue to disrupt our communities. We aim to create an open source campaign where people push for ICE out of LA and full civil and human rights through diverse and innovative tactics.

We envision Los Angeles County as a leader in the humanization and decriminalization of immigrants and a champion for human rights.

Again, this is not reasonable.  We still need to have deportations, and giving everyone who shows up to LA "full civil rights", which would include voting, is not a good idea.

Nobody claimed 10 million immigrants a year but me.  If we were to really abolish ICE we would have something like that.  I don't think it is sustainable.

So the goal is not "get rid of ICE" as you claimed, but "push for ICE out of LA." Why mis-state the actual demand in order to make the protesters seem more unreasonable? Trump is already doing that and doesn't need your help.