Were the Cathars real?

[Josquius]

A grossly oversimplified poll for a massively complex subject.

Recently I read a bit about the Cathars and listened to the rest is history's 2 episodes on them. And...intriguing to learn that historians increasingly question quite how much of a thing they actually were.
Everywhere had its own local cultural quirks and theres a lack of evidence for any united faith amongst those branded as Cathars in Occitania, with the whole series of events around them being part moral panic, part earthly land grab, part later invention to backup the causes of later periods.
But then the established historic narrative does remain. That the cathars were a very real thing.

What say you uneducated delinquents?

[PDH]

Yes and no.  Depends on a lot of things.

[Barrister]

So I'm a big history nerd (shocker), which means I've heard of the Cathars.  It's an otherwise pretty obscure topic.  I'm certainly not an expert though.

I've never heard this theory that they didn't "exist".  Can you provide any links or further information?

[The Brain]

There's a twist?

I don't know. Have they found any Cathar bones? DNA?

[Jacob]

So I'm a big history nerd (shocker), which means I've heard of the Cathars.  It's an otherwise pretty obscure topic.  I'm certainly not an expert though.

I've never heard this theory that they didn't "exist".  Can you provide any links or further information?

I'm guessing the theory goes like this:

Medieval European Christianity had a whole bunch of lay preachers, folk traditions, and so on. The "Cathars" were not a coherent movement any more than any other geographical grouping of vaguely heterodox Christians but rather a label constructed by those who persecuted them - first as a moral panic, then as a justification for landgrabs, and later as a justification for past acts.

That's my guess anyhow. As to whether it's true, I have no idea.

[Barrister]

From Wiki (I know, I know):

Debate on the nature and existence of Catharism
Starting in the 1990s and continuing to the present day, historians like R. I. Moore have challenged the extent to which Catharism, as an institutionalized religion, actually existed. Building on the work of French historians such as Monique Zerner and Uwe Brunn, Moore's The War on Heresy[85] argues that Catharism was "contrived from the resources of [the] well-stocked imaginations" of churchmen, "with occasional reinforcement from miscellaneous and independent manifestations of local anticlericalism or apostolic enthusiasm".[86] In short, Moore claims that the men and women persecuted as Cathars were not the followers of a secret religion imported from the East; instead, they were part of a broader spiritual revival taking place in the later twelfth and early thirteenth centuries. Moore's work is indicative of a larger historiographical trend towards examining how heresy was constructed by the church.[87]

Scholars since the 1990s have referred to the fearful rumors of Cathars as a moral panic. The crusade against Cathars as a possibly-imaginary enemy has been compared to European witch-hunts, anti-Semitic persecution, and the Satanic Panic.[88]

In 2016, Cathars in Question. edited by Antonio Sennis, presents a range of conflicting views by academics of medieval heresy, including Feuchter, Stoyanov, Sackville, Taylor, D'Avray, Biller, Moore, Bruschi, Pegg, Hamilton, Arnold and Théry-Astruc, who had met at University College London and the Warburg Institute in London in April 2013.[9] Sennis describes the debate as about "an issue which is highly controversial and hotly debated among scholars: the existence of a medieval phenomenon which we can legitimately call 'Catharism'."[89]

Dr. Andrew Roach in The English Historical Review commented that "Reconciliation still seems some distance away" among the "distinguished, if sometimes cantankerous, scholars" who contributed to the volume. He said:

The debate is a now familiar one which has been rehearsed for a number of periods and contexts, namely, given that the overwhelming majority of sources about medieval heresy come not from 'heretics' themselves but from their persecutors, is there any way historians can be sure that this classification is not just a result of mindsets driven by pre-conceptions of what is correct or the conscious 'fitting up' of opponents?"

— Roach 2018, pp. 396–398
Professor Rebecca Rist describes the academic controversy as the "heresy debate" – "some of it very heated" – about whether Catharism was a "real heresy with Balkans origins, or rather a construct of western medieval culture, whose authorities wanted to persecute religious dissidents." Rist adds that some historians say the group was an invention of the medieval Church, so there never was a Cathar heresy; while she agrees that the medieval Church exaggerated its threat, she says there is evidence of the heresy's existence.[90]

Professor Claire Taylor has called for a "post-revisionism" in the debate, saying that legacy historians assumed the heresy was a form of dualism and therefore a form of Bogomilism, whereas "revisionists" have focused on social origins to explain the dissent.[90]

Lucy Sackville has argued that while the revisionists rightly point to the Cathars' opaque origins and their branding as 'Manichaeans', this does not mean we should disregard all evidence that their heresy had an organised theology.[90]

[Syt]

The Cathar are a species of cat people in Star Wars, so: no. They're fictional.

[Barrister]

The Cathar are a species of cat people in Star Wars, so: no. They're fictional.

Are you sure you're not confusing them with the Caitians, the Star Trek cat people?

[The Brain]

The crusade against Cathars as a possibly-imaginary enemy has been compared to European witch-hunts, anti-Semitic persecution, and the Satanic Panic.

FWIW my impression is that Jews exist.

[Sheilbh]

So I'm a big history nerd (shocker), which means I've heard of the Cathars.  It's an otherwise pretty obscure topic.  I'm certainly not an expert though.

I've never heard this theory that they didn't "exist".  Can you provide any links or further information?

Have a listen to the Rest is History series on it. On the Cathars they flag a few books about it.

You can probably skip the first episode which is just the (surprisingly funny) story of the sources for the Da Vinci Code.

I'm guessing the theory goes like this:

Medieval European Christianity had a whole bunch of lay preachers, folk traditions, and so on. The "Cathars" were not a coherent movement any more than any other geographical grouping of vaguely heterodox Christians but rather a label constructed by those who persecuted them - first as a moral panic, then as a justification for landgrabs, and later as a justification for past acts.

That's my guess anyhow. As to whether it's true, I have no idea.

A little bit - I think it more that there is a revolution from above in Catholicism in that period which includes things like Canossa but also the increasing emphasis on things priestly celibacy (and the separation of priests and laity/clericalism) or the sacrament of confession.

This is driven by scholarly, clerical elites especially in Rome, Lombardy and university cities like Paris - and their intention is to purify the church (in part because millenarian fears/beliefs are very high in that period). With this process there are on the one hand people who get a little bit too enthused by it (especially in the cities) and also people who are very resistant (especially distant from the urban/clerical centres) - like the Reformation, or other revolutionary periods.

These groups are often referred to by two names (I can't remember the other one - maybe Patarine?) and Cathar, which is a heresy first mentioned in the 4th century and then not mentioned again. It's suggested that Catharism was not a secret church descended from the Bogomilists or the original Cathars (who were in some theories precursors to the Bogomilists). But in a way just a bit of scholastic showing off stealing a name of a heresy from the early church that then becomes the label for people resisting change for all sorts of different reasons in different places. Catharism becomes shorthand for all sorts of local resistance - but also almost a conspiracy theory that what they're facing isn't just local resistance but an organised heresy.

And in the South of France that resistance was particularly strong - especially around measures like clerical celibacy or separating the clergy from the laity - because it went against local traditions which they thought was good Catholic Christianity, but also it's rugged, rural land so isn't getting with the reform program. That resistance combines with local politics (and landgrabbing) to create an incredibly bloodthirsty crusade. There's an element of moral panics and landgrabs - but, in this argument, it's also, perhaps, a precursor of the Vendee or the Red Terror of imposing revolution/reform on recalcitrant backwoods types.

Edit: But listen to the podcast - if interested. They join it together more and refer to books.

[Barrister]

Have a listen to the Rest is History series on it. On the Cathars they flag a few books about it.

You can probably skip the first episode which is just the (surprisingly funny) story of the sources for the Da Vinci Code.

Is there more to it than the fact the central twist was ripped off from the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail?

[Duque de Bragança]

These groups are often referred to by two names (I can't remember the other one - maybe Patarine?) and Cathar, which is a heresy first mentioned in the 4th century and then not mentioned again. It's suggested that Catharism was not a secret church descended from the Bogomilists or the original Cathars (who were in some theories precursors to the Bogomilists). But in a way just a bit of scholastic showing off stealing a name of a heresy from the early church that then becomes the label for people resisting change for all sorts of different reasons in different places. Catharism becomes shorthand for all sorts of local resistance - but also almost a conspiracy theory that what they're facing isn't just local resistance but an organised heresy.

It's Patarenes, from Pataria. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pataria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patarenes

Still not crystal clear since according to Wiki:

Patarenes may refer to:

- members of the Pataria, 11th-century religious movement in the Archdiocese of Milan in northern Italy
- heretics better known as Cathars, members of a Christian dualist sect
- members of the Bosnian Church, considered to be a part of the Cathar movement by Italian writers against heresy

[Sheilbh]

Is there more to it than the fact the central twist was ripped off from the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail?

Yes - it's more about the sources for Holy Blood, Holy Grail in that sense. Via one of the hosts, the cast includes "a French royalist fantasist, a disaffected restaurateur, a mysteriously rich priest, a scriptwriter for Doctor Who and a Yeti"

[Barrister]

Is there more to it than the fact the central twist was ripped off from the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail?

Yes - it's more about the sources for Holy Blood, Holy Grail in that sense. Via one of the hosts, the cast includes "a French royalist fantasist, a disaffected restaurateur, a mysteriously rich priest, a scriptwriter for Doctor Who and a Yeti"

Maybe I'll check it out.

I was weird enough that I actually read Holy Blood, Holy Grail some time in the mid-90s. So I was kind of surprised at how Da Vince Code seemed so surprising to so many people.  :sadblush:

[PDH]

Medieval Heresy is a tricky thing.  Basically, the organizing church after about 1000CE was attempting to move from the small scale regionalism of the earlier church to one more defined doctrinally in line with the new rebirths of classical style rhetoric, logic, and history that were being rediscovered.  Those pushing this were quite aware that there was not the desired uniformity in worship, and the early role of an Inquisitor was to go out and learn about these things while preaching the truth - not coincidently, this was the time of preachers such as Bernard of Clairvaux.

Heresy was, to paraphrase, the willful retaining of false beliefs in defiance of the Truth.  Heretics became heretics only after continuing ("stubborn" was a common descriptor) belief in the face of presented correct doctrine.  Compounding this was the desire to link heresy to those of the latter Ancient World.  That is why there are descriptions of Arians, Pelagianists, Nestorians and the like coming to us in writings of the time - by linking present heresy to ancient ones a more "correct" interpretation and therefore ways to proceed became evident.

Dualism, like the Cathars were accused of, seems to have been a present offshoot of Christianity from the earliest days.  Just like the heretical attempts to split the nature of Jesus, the dividing of the universe into Evil and Good has a reoccurring place.  (It is very likely that there were some dualists in Southern France - just as it seems likely there were earlier groups in the Rhineland, groups in Northern Italy, the Balkans, etc.)

I won't go into the political antics, but just from a religious standpoint the attempt to discover what people were believing, and then to right those beliefs can and did lead to conflict.  The loss of authority by regional powers, and the perceived attack on belief "the way they always were" could and did lead to conflict - add in political elements and you get larger scale regional problems.

In modern sense, the Cathars were very likely not as defined doctrinally as presented by those out to destroy them, they certainly weren't whole cloth ancient Manichees or other Dualists who managed to hide in Provence for a thousand years, and they quite literally (from the sources) did not have a uniformity amongst themselves.  Still, there is a sense that when being attacked, these people did tighten up beliefs, worship, and practices - a common response to attempts to overwhelm.

I think the Cathars were not real, they were real (especially after being attacked), they were not Classical Dualists, but they might have had a lot of Dualist beliefs that grew up regionally in the Early Middle Ages.