My Grand Unifed Theory of Racism

[viper37]

Cool. I'll start wearing a tuxedo everywhere that I go.

If every black man starts wearing a tuxedo, we'll be suspicious of people wearing tux though

[viper37]

Yes.

I state the bad actors in the group are the reason for the stigmatization.

I've already stated my advice to racists: treat everyone the same.

My advice to the other victims here (the store owners) is to refine their algorithms so you have fewer false positives.

While I have a profound dislike for gangsta rap and the associated behavior that comes with it, I don't think it's a mere question of clothing.

[Admiral Yi]

If cops pull you over because you are a black man driving a luxury car, how do you change that?  Don't get rich?  Don't maximize your abilities?

Look, I don't mind arbitrary police stops like that, especially if they have reason to be suspicious (a planned hit near a gang/mafia member, a legitimate description of a suspect that looks like the guy they check "tall black man in mid 20s", they suspect the person just got out of the bar while they are under a no alcohol restriction, etc), but racial profiling in itself serves no purposes but to enrage honest people.  And criminals just don't care.

I didn't claim the signaling strategy would eliminate 100% of false positives.

But racial profiling--which is a loaded term, I prefer risk factor profiling--does serve a purpose.  It ostensibly lowers crime.

[Admiral Yi]

While I have a profound dislike for gangsta rap and the associated behavior that comes with it, I don't think it's a mere question of clothing.

I don't understand your point.

[Admiral Yi]

What's the backstory?

Sorry Jo Jo, didn't catch this first time around.

Black-UK woman runs a charity, gets invited to Buckingham.  82 year old lady in waiting type chats her up, asks where she's from.  UK.  No, where are you from?  Hereford(?).  No, where are you really from?

Then a roil and a ruction soon began.

edit: link is about 10 pages up in the Brexit thread.

[viper37]

While I have a profound dislike for gangsta rap and the associated behavior that comes with it, I don't think it's a mere question of clothing.

I don't understand your point.

Gangsta rap and the associated culture treating women like dirt repulse me.  Like they're all whores who care only about drugs and cash.

But it ain't a question of dress code.  Lots of people are into that shit, even if they ain't black, and they dress in all kind of ways.

[viper37]

If cops pull you over because you are a black man driving a luxury car, how do you change that?  Don't get rich?  Don't maximize your abilities?

Look, I don't mind arbitrary police stops like that, especially if they have reason to be suspicious (a planned hit near a gang/mafia member, a legitimate description of a suspect that looks like the guy they check "tall black man in mid 20s", they suspect the person just got out of the bar while they are under a no alcohol restriction, etc), but racial profiling in itself serves no purposes but to enrage honest people.  And criminals just don't care.

I didn't claim the signaling strategy would eliminate 100% of false positives.

But racial profiling--which is a loaded term, I prefer risk factor profiling--does serve a purpose.  It ostensibly lowers crime.

If risk factor profiling is based on skin color, it is inherently flawed.  It's a false variable to begin with. And it leads to false stats because then you arrest more people based on their skin color so you feed the system false data.

It's like saying most Asians are smart and most Blacks are stupid based on university admission rates.  It's a flawed metric.  And then, if you were to base your university admission criteria on this, you would increase the flawed model by using flawed date to begin with.

[The Minsky Moment]

What's the backstory?

Black-UK woman runs a charity, gets invited to Buckingham.  82 year old lady in waiting type chats her up, asks where she's from.  UK.  No, where are you from?  Hereford(?).  No, where are you really from?

And your theory (first post) is that you can't conclude old lady in waiting is racist because of the possibility that she asks all people "where are you really from" multiple times?

That seems to me an extremely low probability possibility.

[Barrister]

I think a useful strategy for the law abiding member of a stigmatized group is to signal one's difference from the group.  Things like the way you dress, the way you talk, etc. can signal to the world that while you are from the same place as the others your behavior is different.  Pulling up your pants for example.  Sagging is based on glorification of prison culture.  I wouldn't want to hire someone who sagged and if I managed a retail store that's the person I would keep an eye on, until I had evidence to the contrary, either anecdotally from my own experience or more formally.

So your advice to the stigmatized group is to change their behaviour?

You imply that their behaviour is the reason for the stigmatization?

Dude I like you but you sometimes sound like you're from the 1950s. Wtf.

And what advice can you give to racists? Because your advice mainly seems to be aimed at the victims here, basically telling the girl to pull down her miniskirt.

So I saw this thread and thought about the same rape analogy.

Look, when it comes to rape, the moral fault is 100% with the rapist.

When it comes to the real world though there are definitely steps women can take to decrease their odds of being raped.  Not so much 'wear longer skirts', but more like don't get drunk in unfamiliar surroundings where someone can take advantage of you.

It's the same reason why you shouldn't wave around large sums of cash in a bad neighbourhood.  If you get mugged the moral blameworthiness is 100% on the mugger - but that doesn't mean the victim wasn't displaying some risky behaviour.

So what does that mean for POCs or otherwise marginalized groups?  I'm not sure.  I get that this is easy for me to say as a middle-aged white male - I get all the breaks.  On the one hand Yi's advice makes sense - dress up to try and decrease your odds of facing discrimination.  On the other hand though does that feed into all kinds of stereotypes that people with low-hanging pants are criminals?  Perhaps.

[Jacob]

IMO there are steps individuals can take to manage risks in an injust world. It is often sensible to take those steps on an individual and case-by-case basis. At the same time, those risk mitigation steps often carry a cost one way or the other.

At the same time, it is IMO incumbent upon decent folks to try to make our world less injust or, at the very least, to not actively perpetuate and promote injustice.

Again IMO, very often "well meaning" advice on how to mitigate risk is used as a substitute for actual action against injust situations, as an excuse for not taking action, or even as a tactic to shift responsibility for the injustice of the world unto its various victims for failing to meet some conveniently arbitrary standard of "sensible" risk mitigation.

[Admiral Yi]

If risk factor profiling is based on skin color, it is inherently flawed.  It's a false variable to begin with. And it leads to false stats because then you arrest more people based on their skin color so you feed the system false data.

It's like saying most Asians are smart and most Blacks are stupid based on university admission rates.  It's a flawed metric.  And then, if you were to base your university admission criteria on this, you would increase the flawed model by using flawed date to begin with.

I see your point about the feedback loop, but I don't see any evidence for the assertion that race in a vacuum is not a predictive variable.

[Admiral Yi]

And your theory (first post) is that you can't conclude old lady in waiting is racist because of the possibility that she asks all people "where are you really from" multiple times?

That seems to me an extremely low probability possibility.

No, because the possibility that she treats all people the same.  There's a reasonable possibility that she asks the same question to white people with accents and/or non-UK surnames.  There's also a reasonable possibility that she considers asking a person who's ancestors obviously immigrated to the UK at some point where their family origin is a rude, condescending question, and therefore in her mind she treated the black lady with the same civility she shows everyone else.

[The Minsky Moment]

No, because the possibility that she treats all people the same.  There's a reasonable possibility that she asks the same question to white people with accents and/or non-UK surnames.  There's also a reasonable possibility that she considers asking a person who's ancestors obviously immigrated to the UK at some point where their family origin is a rude, condescending question, and therefore in her mind she treated the black lady with the same civility she shows everyone else.

But black charity lady doesn't have an accent, I assume.

The repetition and the "where are you *really* from" seems to eliminate the possibility of nuance here.  I don't think she asks that question of Nigel Farage.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah.

I don't personally think there's a big problem with "where are you from?" Asking it 9 times on the other hand.

Of course, Nigel Farage just doesn't get invited to the palace

[Josquius]

Yeah.

I don't personally think there's a big problem with "where are you from?" Asking it 9 times on the other hand.

Though I certainly have found myself in a situation where a black guy freaked out for just being asked it once

I wonder whether it's a more sensitive question in other countries.
Britain is a place where you expect to find diversity. When you run into a Chinese Norwegian though... Then damn it I'm curious. Which likely annoys the Chinese Norwegian as he is getting it all the time.