http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/10076467/Fracking-could-ruin-German-beer-industry-brewers-tell-Angela-Merkel.html
QuoteFracking could ruin German beer industry, brewers tell Angela Merkel
German brewers have warned Chancellor Angela Merkel that any law allowing the controversial drilling technique known as fracking could damage the country's cherished beer industry.
The Brauer-Bund beer association is worried that fracking for shale gas, which involves pumping water and chemicals at high pressure into the ground, could pollute water used for brewing and break a 500-year-old industry rule on water purity.
Germany, home to Munich's annual Oktoberfest - the world's biggest folk festival which attracts around 7m visitors - has a proud tradition of brewing and beer drinking.
Under the "Reinheitsgebot", or German purity law, brewers have to produce beer using only malt, hops, yeast and water.
"The water has to be pure and more than half Germany's brewers have their own wells which are situated outside areas that could be protected under the government's current planned legislation on fracking," said a Brauer-Bund spokesman.
"You cannot be sure that the water won't be polluted by chemicals so we have urged the government to carry out more research before it goes ahead with a fracking law," he added.
Germany is Europe's biggest producer of beer and has the third-largest per-capita consumption after the Czech Republic and Austria.
It is home to more than 1,300 breweries, which produce about 5,000 different beers, according to the Brauer-Bund.
With pressure mounting from German industry to at least look into the option of tapping its shale gas reserves, Merkel's centre-right coalition is working on a law setting out the conditions for exploration that would protect certain areas.
Given resistance from opposition parties which could block the law in the upper house of parliament, it is unlikely that a law on fracking will be passed before an election in September.
Does Germany have enough water for fracking?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 24, 2013, 02:31:18 AM
Does Germany have enough water for fracking?
According to my second favourite website
http://www.germanlivestock.de/german_cattle.html
they have 13 million cows in germany. So they presumably have enough water for 6.5 million wells every few years.
as for the pollution.. yes, that might happen, but then again it already is happening from every other source of pollution of ground water as well.
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2013, 06:24:46 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 24, 2013, 02:31:18 AM
Does Germany have enough water for fracking?
According to my second favourite website
http://www.germanlivestock.de/german_cattle.html
they have 13 million cows in germany. So they presumably have enough water for 6.5 million wells every few years.
as for the pollution.. yes, that might happen, but then again it already is happening from every other source of pollution of ground water as well.
yes but this would be for Evöl Oil!
We dont like oil! We just use it for plastics and fuels and tons of other shit every day! But we hates it!
Do the writers of BG get a royalty everytime someone says Frack :hmm:
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 24, 2013, 08:16:33 AM
Do the writers of BG get a royalty everytime someone says Frack :hmm:
You're a lawyer, you should know better.
I don't have any skin in the fracking game but all the unbiased research I've read on it indicates that fracking specifically is not really the problem people think it is. Because of the depths at which fracking is done, there's not really ever been any confirmed evidence deep-well fracking causes anything to permeate up (a vast distance) into the water table. Instead, there is evidence that all natural gas drilling, susceptible to leaks and other problems at the well head can sometimes pollute the water table. Fracking has increased the total amount of drilling, but it's really drilling itself, and not fracking specifically, that is the problem.
It may seem a minor difference, but I find it annoying people seem to believe it is specifically the physical activity specific to fracking that causes water contamination. It isn't, and in fact as deep as fracking actually occurs it is highly unlikely that has any impact on the water table. What makes most sense and is the only thing I've seen confirmed is that like all oil and gas drilling there is a non-zero chance of things happening which can pollute ground water.
And this will be sacrilege coming from a serious drinker and son of a native born German mother, but the Reinheitsgebot and the brewers that still adhere to it are killing the image of German beer. It's resulted in stagnant taste and you're already seeing American craft beers being sold in Germany because people are becoming more interested in brewers that actually think maybe we should experiment with the taste of beer from time to time and try to hit on interesting new flavors.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 24, 2013, 08:27:18 AM
And this will be sacrilege coming from a serious drinker and son of a native born German mother, but the Reinheitsgebot and the brewers that still adhere to it are killing the image of German beer. It's resulted in stagnant taste and you're already seeing American craft beers being sold in Germany because people are becoming more interested in brewers that actually think maybe we should experiment with the taste of beer from time to time and try to hit on interesting new flavors.
Ditto. Except for the German mother part.
I mean, Germans do 3 or 4 styles of beer exceedingly well. But I don't always want a pilsner, Maerzen, or hefeweizen.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 24, 2013, 08:20:16 AM
I don't have any skin in the fracking game but all the unbiased research I've read on it indicates that fracking specifically is not really the problem people think it is. Because of the depths at which fracking is done, there's not really ever been any confirmed evidence deep-well fracking causes anything to permeate up (a vast distance) into the water table. Instead, there is evidence that all natural gas drilling, susceptible to leaks and other problems at the well head can sometimes pollute the water table. Fracking has increased the total amount of drilling, but it's really drilling itself, and not fracking specifically, that is the problem.
It may seem a minor difference, but I find it annoying people seem to believe it is specifically the physical activity specific to fracking that causes water contamination. It isn't, and in fact as deep as fracking actually occurs it is highly unlikely that has any impact on the water table. What makes most sense and is the only thing I've seen confirmed is that like all oil and gas drilling there is a non-zero chance of things happening which can pollute ground water.
Everything above is completely correct.
While there are a few fracking related problems with gas migration (gas moving from the shale into the formation rather than into the well) they are easily dealt with by following regular completion practices.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 24, 2013, 08:20:16 AM
I don't have any skin in the fracking game but all the unbiased research I've read on it indicates that fracking specifically is not really the problem people think it is. Because of the depths at which fracking is done, there's not really ever been any confirmed evidence deep-well fracking causes anything to permeate up (a vast distance) into the water table. Instead, there is evidence that all natural gas drilling, susceptible to leaks and other problems at the well head can sometimes pollute the water table. Fracking has increased the total amount of drilling, but it's really drilling itself, and not fracking specifically, that is the problem.
It may seem a minor difference, but I find it annoying people seem to believe it is specifically the physical activity specific to fracking that causes water contamination. It isn't, and in fact as deep as fracking actually occurs it is highly unlikely that has any impact on the water table. What makes most sense and is the only thing I've seen confirmed is that like all oil and gas drilling there is a non-zero chance of things happening which can pollute ground water.
This is pretty much what I've read or heard of fracking. One thing that I'm not sure of is if any of the water needs to be disposed of above ground, and if that's a problem?
All the noise about fracking seems pretty funny to a guy living in an area where they've been doing it for decades.
They need to hire some PR mouthpiece to come up with a less scary sounding word than "fracking."
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 24, 2013, 08:20:16 AM
I don't have any skin in the fracking game but all the unbiased research I've read on it indicates that fracking specifically is not really the problem people think it is. Because of the depths at which fracking is done, there's not really ever been any confirmed evidence deep-well fracking causes anything to permeate up (a vast distance) into the water table. Instead, there is evidence that all natural gas drilling, susceptible to leaks and other problems at the well head can sometimes pollute the water table. Fracking has increased the total amount of drilling, but it's really drilling itself, and not fracking specifically, that is the problem.
There's also the problem of simply not having a long enough time frame to study the issue, beyond the very limited scope and scale of its use prior to 2005. What's needed is the engineering equivalent of a 20 year clinical history.
QuoteIt may seem a minor difference, but I find it annoying people seem to believe it is specifically the physical activity specific to fracking that causes water contamination. It isn't, and in fact as deep as fracking actually occurs it is highly unlikely that has any impact on the water table.
Those problems aren't found necessarily in the engineering, but more of proper environmental regulatory controls surrounding the procedure being in place.
Luckily for the US, the determined attempts to slowly eliminate the Environmental Protection Agency will take care of those nasty inconveniences.
Quote from: KRonn on May 24, 2013, 01:11:42 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 24, 2013, 08:20:16 AM
I don't have any skin in the fracking game but all the unbiased research I've read on it indicates that fracking specifically is not really the problem people think it is. Because of the depths at which fracking is done, there's not really ever been any confirmed evidence deep-well fracking causes anything to permeate up (a vast distance) into the water table. Instead, there is evidence that all natural gas drilling, susceptible to leaks and other problems at the well head can sometimes pollute the water table. Fracking has increased the total amount of drilling, but it's really drilling itself, and not fracking specifically, that is the problem.
It may seem a minor difference, but I find it annoying people seem to believe it is specifically the physical activity specific to fracking that causes water contamination. It isn't, and in fact as deep as fracking actually occurs it is highly unlikely that has any impact on the water table. What makes most sense and is the only thing I've seen confirmed is that like all oil and gas drilling there is a non-zero chance of things happening which can pollute ground water.
This is pretty much what I've read or heard of fracking. One thing that I'm not sure of is if any of the water needs to be disposed of above ground, and if that's a problem?
If there is a near by conventional oil or gas field they will often inject the water into them to produce more. If there isn't they will some times drill a deposition well near by to get rid of it. If there is a near by water treatment facility they will send it there.
It is a problem since it is polluted. The chemicals which are added are nasty and cannot be added to rivers, lakes and oceans. That water needs to be treated. It's mainly a cost benefit analysis for the deposition or treatment. They already have a drilling rig and a it only takes a week with a cheap land rig to drill a hole to dump the water in.
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2013, 12:40:20 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 24, 2013, 08:20:16 AM
I don't have any skin in the fracking game but all the unbiased research I've read on it indicates that fracking specifically is not really the problem people think it is. Because of the depths at which fracking is done, there's not really ever been any confirmed evidence deep-well fracking causes anything to permeate up (a vast distance) into the water table. Instead, there is evidence that all natural gas drilling, susceptible to leaks and other problems at the well head can sometimes pollute the water table. Fracking has increased the total amount of drilling, but it's really drilling itself, and not fracking specifically, that is the problem.
It may seem a minor difference, but I find it annoying people seem to believe it is specifically the physical activity specific to fracking that causes water contamination. It isn't, and in fact as deep as fracking actually occurs it is highly unlikely that has any impact on the water table. What makes most sense and is the only thing I've seen confirmed is that like all oil and gas drilling there is a non-zero chance of things happening which can pollute ground water.
Everything above is completely correct.
While there are a few fracking related problems with gas migration (gas moving from the shale into the formation rather than into the well) they are easily dealt with by following regular completion practices.
Facts are not welcome in most of these discussions...
I want cheap gas dammit!
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 24, 2013, 03:16:20 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2013, 12:40:20 PM
Everything above is completely correct.
While there are a few fracking related problems with gas migration (gas moving from the shale into the formation rather than into the well) they are easily dealt with by following regular completion practices.
Facts are not welcome in most of these discussions...
I want cheap gas dammit!
I was saying that the only fracking specific problem is easily solved by present standard procedures. You can have your cheap gas.
I support Germany importing their gas from North America. :cool:
Too much German Beer can also ruin fracking.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 24, 2013, 05:33:27 PM
I support Germany importing their gas from North America. :cool:
Lately I've read some articles about how US and European companies are coming to the US for drilling and fracking. With the large reserves found of natural gas and oil it's making a lot of sense, very enticing. Plus no worrying about drilling in unstable countries, and it's probably cheaper to do business in the US. So in some cases corps are selling assets in other places to move operations to the US. Supposedly the US may out produce the Saudis by 2020 and is already a leader in natural gas, or close to leading. Also read that Russia is feeling the effects for their strong arm tactics in supplying gas to Europe, since some of those countries have good alternatives now with the US.
USA USA
It's the lack of a domestic market that's ruining German beer.